2020 Fire Fighter Disco 1 & 2 Family Dwellings 230.85

Status
Not open for further replies.

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
New proposed section 230.85 requires a Emergency Disconnect for service conductors of 1 & 2 family dwellings located readily accessible outside the dwelling.

Know as the "Fire Fighter Disconnected"

Here is the language...

230.85 Emergency Disconnects(s)
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:

(1) Service disconnect(s) marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, SERVICE DISCONNECT

(2) Meter disconnect(s) installed per 230.83(#) and marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, METER DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

(3) Other than listed disconnect switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked : EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

Markings shall comply with 110.21(B)
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
New proposed section 230.85 requires a Emergency Disconnect for service conductors of 1 & 2 family dwellings located readily accessible outside the dwelling.

Know as the "Fire Fighter Disconnected"

Here is the language...

230.85 Emergency Disconnects(s)
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:

(1) Service disconnect(s) marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, SERVICE DISCONNECT

(2) Meter disconnect(s) installed per 230.83(#) and marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, METER DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

(3) Other than listed disconnect switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked : EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

Markings shall comply with 110.21(B)
I hope it does not go through or requires put in a box that only firefighters can access...
imagine the burglar scenario... turn off firefighter disconnects for home, no alarm, take time breaking in...
same with murderers or rapists... turn off firefighters disconnect..no video gear to catch me...lol..
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
The PI called for that for all services, but the panel action limited to one and two family dwellings. As a former first responder, I think access to kill the power to commercial is more critical than for one and two family dwellings, especially since some utilities remotely kill the power on a call from the FD where the dwelling units have smart meters
 

packersparky

Senior Member
The PI called for that for all services, but the panel action limited to one and two family dwellings. As a former first responder, I think access to kill the power to commercial is more critical than for one and two family dwellings, especially since some utilities remotely kill the power on a call from the FD where the dwelling units have smart meters
We have smart meters here, but it is my understanding that they do not have contactors in them and they cannot be shut off remotely. At least that is the way it is here. The larger the service the less likely it is that it can be shut off remotely due the the cost of a contactor.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
We have smart meters here, but it is my understanding that they do not have contactors in them and they cannot be shut off remotely. At least that is the way it is here. The larger the service the less likely it is that it can be shut off remotely due the the cost of a contactor.
Well smart meters can have a internal disco. It may be a option though.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
Thought of using a box like utilities use here in UK to limit number of people can access the box but the keys are so common that you still end up with thieves having access to the disconnects to break into the property easier...

is the reasoning simply imply to reduce the problems of the solar backfeeds? Or is it to fully disconnect? Because with the different backfeed methods combined with smart meters and properties like I deal with in Jamaica, can see real problems in the disconnects being in one accessible spot unless we now require the panels to be on an outside wall... disconnects on outside of that wall, panel on inside of that wall...

really watching this stuff as most properties in Jamaica are setup more like trailers than US homes, with the meter on the property line and an underground usually run to building to an inside panel box... though sometimes run overhead.. older homes have meters on building but POCO requiring meters at property lines due to theft and dogs..lol...
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
I use meter/mains when i can.

It's a safer and better job, jmho

consider how 408.3 (2) (2017) factors in


(2) Service Panelboards, Switchboards, and Switchgear. Barri‐
ers shall be placed in all service panelboards, switchboards, and
switchgear such that no uninsulated, ungrounded service
busbar or service terminal is exposed to inadvertent contact by
persons or maintenance equipment while servicing load termi‐
nations.
~RJ~
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
We have smart meters here, but it is my understanding that they do not have contactors in them and they cannot be shut off remotely. At least that is the way it is here. The larger the service the less likely it is that it can be shut off remotely due the the cost of a contactor.
The meters used for dwelling services by both utilities in our area have the contactor and one of them will do a remote disconnect when the FD calls in for a response to a fire. As you get to larger services, you have CT meters and they cannot have a contactor as the actual power does not flow through the meter. That is why, it is my opinion, that an outside disconnect is more important to the first responders on larger services.
 

tortuga

Senior Member
The meters used for dwelling services by both utilities in our area have the contactor and one of them will do a remote disconnect when the FD calls in for a response to a fire. As you get to larger services, you have CT meters and they cannot have a contactor as the actual power does not flow through the meter. That is why, it is my opinion, that an outside disconnect is more important to the first responders on larger services.
How could they fit a 200A contactor UL listed to open 22Kaic under load in a "smart meter"? When I think of the dimensions of an Allen Bradley EH 145 200A AC Contactor we put them in a huge can. Even a non UL listed Chinese contactor rated for 200A would not fit. A proper 200A contactor is surely larger than a residential meter.
I agree most of the smart meter fears are that of "Quacks" but the evidence is says these meters don't often open under full load, perhaps never will. But when they do they seem to explode.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
New proposed section 230.85 requires a Emergency Disconnect for service conductors of 1 & 2 family dwellings located readily accessible outside the dwelling.

Know as the "Fire Fighter Disconnected"

Here is the language...

230.85 Emergency Disconnects(s)
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:

(1) Service disconnect(s) marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, SERVICE DISCONNECT

(2) Meter disconnect(s) installed per 230.83(#) and marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, METER DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

(3) Other than listed disconnect switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked : EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

Markings shall comply with 110.21(B)
would be great if they would agree that it being in line on service side of main meter does not mean the feed between it and the main panel now needs to be four wire instead of three... but everyone is saying that it needs to be treated as the main entrance for the services...
with the not service equipment or emergency disconnect, can we get one hundred or two hundred or etc rated blade switches in approved outside panels that are capable of being locked in the up position to stop people from just turning it off, but with some sort of fireman’s key on it... or the fireman just use bolt cutters to cut the lock and turn it off? Think that needs to be in code so we can keep the feed as three wire... line neutral line...
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
The meters used for dwelling services by both utilities in our area have the contactor and one of them will do a remote disconnect when the FD calls in for a response to a fire. As you get to larger services, you have CT meters and they cannot have a contactor as the actual power does not flow through the meter. That is why, it is my opinion, that an outside disconnect is more important to the first responders on larger services.
Nothing quite like rolling around on a wet floor, blindly aiming a fire hose at god knows what , while dispatch is waking up the poco....~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
I hope it does not go through or requires put in a box that only firefighters can access...
imagine the burglar scenario... turn off firefighter disconnects for home, no alarm, take time breaking in...
same with murderers or rapists... turn off firefighters disconnect..no video gear to catch me...lol..
real disco's are 110.25 compliant (lockable)

only a minority of meters are locked

meter's are easily yanked Adam

~RJ~
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
I agree but they want a disconnect... I mean, to yank meters in my area in Jamaica takes a wire cutter, cut the flimsy lock, lift panel, and pull meter... think any fire fighter could do that and cut power so only other concern is the Solar or Battery stuff... but, because of criminals, do not really want those areas able to be easily cut or disconnected.

Want a criminal to at least have to work at it to break into my property... not simply take a screwdriver, twist the lock and pull stuff ...
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
This would be a real headache in certain parts of the country. There should be some kind of exception for existing services.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Not for me Jag.

Look at it this way, a lotto disco prevents live panel work

and i had such high hopes for 408.3(2) , oh well.....

~RJ~
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
I think the intent is commendable but the requirement is unworkable in many instances. How about a meter socket with a built in disconnect for new resi installations?

How could they fit a 200A contactor UL listed to open 22Kaic under load in a "smart meter"? When I think of the dimensions of an Allen Bradley EH 145 200A AC Contactor we put them in a huge can. Even a non UL listed Chinese contactor rated for 200A would not fit. A proper 200A contactor is surely larger than a residential meter.
I agree most of the smart meter fears are that of "Quacks" but the evidence is says these meters don't often open under full load, perhaps never will. But when they do they seem to explode.
I've always said that here was incompetent engineering there. Contactor should be capable of opening the full specified load of the meter, not what some utility thinks the max load will be. True, many resi loads will never see 80A on a 200A service but there are plenty that will come close to 200.



-Hal
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top