2020 NEC requirement for outdoor disconnect on 1 or two family dwelling units.

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hbiss said:
Obviously you aren't from NY. And if you work for the utility company why would they call you anyway? I'm sure most people are smart enough to just go outside and flip the breaker back on and not bother to say anything. So most of these cases probably go unreported. If you were to ask these people they would probably say it's a problem waiting to happen.

-Hal
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You overestimate the average human. Those that are mechanical minded, will go check for outside breaker or similar, those that aren't call POCO or an electrician, or at least someone they know that may be able to help them, or they may even leave the place.
 
ActionDave said:
Why? Locks on electrical equipment are as common as pigoens on a city street.

We've got a whole desk drawer of keys to all kinds of locks on all kinds of equipment.
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Maybe not a desk drawer, but I have many keys and don't know what the majority of them go to.
 
Hv&Lv said:
Locked in the ON position. For emergencies I just think they should be readily accessible without a lock so they can be shut off. As long as there is a set of bolt cutters available to anyone needing to shut the power off in a hurry, then fine.
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Fire departments will have a bolt cutter, it is not anything new to them to have to cut locks on power switches, panels, gas valves, etc. that were put in place to prevent tampering by unauthorized people.
 
ActionDave said:
What am I supposed to tell my farmer customers with 480V irrigation pivots and pump panels in their hay fields? Umm I think you better move this operation indoors, your electrical irrigation equipment really shouldn't be outside.
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you could tell them to hire a real 'lectrician , paper trained and all to do maintenance for once........:happyyes:

~RJ~
 
kwired said:
Fire departments will have a bolt cutter, it is not anything new to them to have to cut locks on power switches, panels, gas valves, etc. that were put in place to prevent tampering by unauthorized people.
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I watched a FF take an axe to a service drop once, back in my day....~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
they open it @ the pole either way.....~RJ~
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The power company opens it at the pole by either cutting the connection to keep others on or disconnecting the XF it they are the only one on the pot.
Fire departments do not open it at the pole. Usually by the time we are called the house is burned down or it is burning down because the guys don’t want to go in with the power on.
we have a few that are fairly electric smart. I’ve given them blanks and sometimes when I get there they have the meter pulled, and the blank is on it. I disconnect at pole , and give them another blank to replace the one they used.
 
SceneryDriver said:
If this requirement sticks around, I expect to see manufacturers start to come out with meter pedestals / enclosures with integrated disconnecting means.
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Nothing new about existence of such things. Might not be common where you are at but such products have been made for years.
 
ActionDave said:
That's two opinions.

What's the population of NJ. Is it near the total population of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, California, and Colorado, just to name a few? Because they all have outdoor disconnects and lots of outdoor panels and if there was a problem I'm sure it would have shown itself.

And what about NJ. Are you going to tell me that switches don't stand a chance of survival out there unless they are in some sort of enclosed environment? What, the electrical equipment that is outside has an assigned nanny that puts a blanket on it in the winter and stands by with an umbrella during rainstorms? Give me a break.
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Just how much snow and freezing rain do you get in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, California, and Colorado?

What am I supposed to tell my farmer customers with 480V irrigation pivots and pump panels in their hay fields? Umm I think you better move this operation indoors, your electrical irrigation equipment really shouldn't be outside.
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That's ridiculous. You know the answer is that it's the only way to do it.

But really, locating breakers and panelboards outdoors is not the topic here. A "firefighter disco" doesn't have to be a breaker.

-Hal
 
ActionDave said:
That's two opinions.

What's the population of NJ. Is it near the total population of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, California, and Colorado, just to name a few? Because they all have outdoor disconnects and lots of outdoor panels and if there was a problem I'm sure it would have shown itself.

And what about NJ. Are you going to tell me that switches don't stand a chance of survival out there unless they are in some sort of enclosed environment? What, the electrical equipment that is outside has an assigned nanny that puts a blanket on it in the winter and stands by with an umbrella during rainstorms? Give me a break.

What am I supposed to tell my farmer customers with 480V irrigation pivots and pump panels in their hay fields? Umm I think you better move this operation indoors, your electrical irrigation equipment really shouldn't be outside.
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and there are many of those that have open or even lost covers and they still continue to work - though it doesn't help any.

I bet I can take you on a drive around the countryside here on about any day and we can find at least a couple disconnects on utility poles near the road that have the cover open or even missing altogether. I don't know what it is with most those farmers, but once they open something like that they don't close it unless it absolutely must be closed to operate. The worst is covers that are easily removable. If you can't find said cover often if you probe around at the ground nearby you may find it has been there long enough that things grew over it.
 
romex jockey said:
Hv&Lv said:
yes....



no....




that was not much of a detriment in my day....



many departments carried 'meter blanks' , not so much these days due to liabilities

tread careful out there Hv



~RJ~
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I appreciate these guys at the Volunteer fire departments around here. They do it for the love of the game or adrenaline only. No pay, up all night and have to go to work the next day or take a vacation day, if they have it...
i was on the board of directors for ours for years. Wasn’t man enough to join them, too scared of fire... I know about all of them in our area, and know which ones to trust with blanks and which ones need to stay out there manning hose.
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So RJ, let me ask you the question that I asked above and didn't get an answer to. As a firefighter, is the disconnect something you feel is important? Because I never hear of any firefighters weighing in on this. Further, was any input from firefighters sought by the NEC or is this just another of their solutions to a problem that doesn't exist except to line the pockets of manufacturers?

-Hal
 
30+ years ago few "electricians" even considered arc flash potential, let alone non electricians, including fire fighters. Your typical house had self contained metering and pulling the meter out of the socket did open the circuit to the house. Now there are many more higher capacity services, pulling a meter that operates via CT's is not going to kill power to the house. With all these considerations I can maybe understand some need for the requirement- but still makes no sense that it only applies to one and two family dwellings. On top of that if you have a large enough home, it may not be easy to find such disconnect should emergency crews need to use it. Even if it was obvious when new, owners tend to try to hide utility items by placing plants near them, painting them so they blend in with surroundings better, etc.
 
hbiss said:
So RJ, let me ask you the question that I asked above and didn't get an answer to. As a firefighter, is the disconnect something you feel is important? Because I never hear of any firefighters weighing in on this. Further, was any input from firefighters sought by the NEC or is this just another of their solutions to a problem that doesn't exist except to line the pockets of manufacturers?

-Hal
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I'm an ex hbiss, 30 yrs in, retired due to a bum back..... But you pose a fair Q. To be honest, i really don't think the average FF gives a rodents rear end if the powers on or off ,maybe the 'white helmets' that stand outside and yell at them might .....in fact many are such adrenaline junkies ( spot on Hv!) :ashamed1: that it probably wouldn't even cross their minds

In their defense, if you talk to guys like Don G (rescuecapt) , there's very little that apparently travels back to 'bite' the nozzleman who gains entry for a fog pattern first....

The real truth is, even if there are outside disco's , most dept's would probably call the poco anyways......

~RJ~
 
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