2020 NEC requirement for outdoor disconnect on 1 or two family dwelling units.

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Hv&Lv

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I still don’t know what I’m doing with posting... sorry..
 

Hv&Lv

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So RJ, let me ask you the question that I asked above and didn't get an answer to. As a firefighter, is the disconnect something you feel is important? Because I never hear of any firefighters weighing in on this. Further, was any input from firefighters sought by the NEC or is this just another of their solutions to a problem that doesn't exist except to line the pockets of manufacturers?

-Hal

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/compa...rotection.html

“Safety disconnect (formerly the firefighter disconnect)


The 2020 change


Language now exists in Article 230.85 for emergency disconnects on the exterior of one- and two-family dwelling units so that first responders may quickly disconnect power to a structure. Language in Article 445.18 also addresses emergency generator shutdown. The rationale for change


Aside from fire dangers, first responders often must account for electrical hazards during emergencies. Fires are chaotic, with firefighters rushing to ventilate buildings on rooftops, breaking through windows and opening walls in seconds. With that, there’s a real danger of coming in contact with energized conductors and equipment.

Typically, first responders look to turn the power off before entering a blaze, but many homes’ panelboards are in basements. Terminating power at the transformer, which could be atop a pole, is not something any untrained person should attempt. This change mandates placing emergency disconnects near the service entrance equipment outside of a structure.
What might the future hold?


Concerns were raised during requirement debates that safety disconnects allow anyone to terminate the power to a home. The NEC’s response was to allow the installation of disconnect locks to thwart unauthorized power access. While the locks will not impede firefighters or other first responders and may provide a level of comfort to the homeowner, contractors will still have to explain the expense of safety disconnects, especially in locations where it’s not common practice to add outdoor service panelboards. When bidding on new jobs, technicians should stress the importance of safety to justify costs to consumers. “


It makes sense to a point... somewhere someone had a busted bulb in their crawl space and got into the bare filaments receiving a shock. Now a crawl space lighting is GFCI...

its been discussed here before...
https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/a...er-disco-1-2-family-dwellings-230-85?t=193366
 

jaggedben

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I sincerely hope that San Francisco passes a local ammendment that will at least allow some leeway on this. A sizable percentage of the houses truly have no suitable location on the outside. People shouldn't have to hire a GC and pay for a remodel in order to upgrade their service panel.
 

Hv&Lv

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Cali is on the 2014? Some are still on 2008... I bet a bunch of us are retired before the 2020 is adopted in our states, so no worries!!
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
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Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
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EC
Aside from fire dangers, first responders often must account for electrical hazards during emergencies. Fires are chaotic, with firefighters rushing to ventilate buildings on rooftops, breaking through windows and opening walls in seconds. With that, there’s a real danger of coming in contact with energized conductors and equipment.

Is there any hard data on the number of firefighters shocked or electrocuted under these circumstances? Anybody even heard of one?

Turnout gear is pretty damn tough. When you are breaking through a burning wall the last thing that is going to bother you is some live electrical wiring. As soon as you cut it it will trip the breaker anyway.

So as for the Eaton propaganda, the NEC is stupid enough to fall for it but I'm from NY.

-Hal
 

mbrooke

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Is there any hard data on the number of firefighters shocked or electrocuted under these circumstances? Anybody even heard of one?

Turnout gear is pretty damn tough. When you are breaking through a burning wall the last thing that is going to bother you is some live electrical wiring. As soon as you cut it it will trip the breaker anyway.

So as for the Eaton propaganda, the NEC is stupid enough to fall for it but I'm from NY.

-Hal


Uhh, dude, sir, buddy... Eaton owns the NFPA. Eaton will always have the final say.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
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EC
Seems like a lot of manufacturers and special interests own the NFPA these days. What a disgrace. What states need to do is just say we aren't going to adopt any new code editions from you until you clean up your act.

-Hal
 

mbrooke

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Aside from fire dangers, first responders often must account for electrical hazards during emergencies. Fires are chaotic, with firefighters rushing to ventilate buildings on rooftops, breaking through windows and opening walls in seconds. With that, there’s a real danger of coming in contact with energized conductors and equipment.

And this is only a hazard in one and two family dwellings? That is why I thing this requirement is stupid. If it applies everywhere I may not like it as one that designs and installs things, but can at least understand the reasoning.
 

102 Inspector

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As a volunteer firefighter for 35 years and a "white helmet" for 15 years, I have probably 3 people on the department that I trust to do anything around a meter. I have also been building official for the community for 30 years. I have personally pulled numerous meters however with the new smart meters it is hard to tell how much load is being pulled. Years ago we looked at the meter and if was spinning like crazy, you left it. Did not want an arc flash to occur. I am not a fan of the disconnect requirement but feel if it is going to be a requirement, it needs to include more than just 1 & 2 family dwelling. As stated, a CT cabinet is difficult to shut down for a firefighter. As an inspector, the outside disconnect would then require a 4-wire feeder to the interior panel which I still have problems explaining to people why it is required. I will read on as more comments are posted, but since we are still on the 2008, it will be awhile before it hits my jurisdiction.
 

Hv&Lv

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And this is only a hazard in one and two family dwellings? That is why I thing this requirement is stupid. If it applies everywhere I may not like it as one that designs and installs things, but can at least understand the reasoning.

Personally, I would rather see disconnects installed on CT installations outside. A meter can be pulled with no problem. A CT installation with no disconnect outside has to be shut off from the XF.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Hv&Lv

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Not sure if anyone answered the question but we use what GE calls a trailer panel. It is a wp panel 200 amp with 8 cir and feed thru lugs. TM8-20RCUFL. About $125 from Home Depot








And from what I have read that satisfies the code requirement. It will only bother those that are in the other thread regarding the inside disconnect location.
put it on the outside that problem gores away also.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Maybe where you are, I have to use NEC when wiring dwellings.

The building code in Nebraska is composed of two codes the International Building Code (commercial building) and the International Residential Code. Whenever a new edition of the codes (IBC or IRC) is published, it is automatically considered the state building code. Bill drafters contend that the Nebraska Legislature has inadvertently delegated away their legislative authority to the International Codes Council which publishes these codes. (high lighted below)
I goggled this and don't know how old it is or if still in effect. What I am saying is most electricians don't know this.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
This kind of stuff irks me no end. As soon as a new code cycle is even mentioned instructors go woah, I need teach to it. You are on the the 2014 NEC AS AMENDED. How about focusing on making your class proficient with that code instead of confusing them with something they may not see until years from now if ever? Geeze, some states are still on the 2008. I'm on the 14. I couldn't care less about the 17 and I'll probably be retired before the 20.

As to your question, pretty much the same principle applies. Don't expect suppliers and manufacturers to gear up with this stuff when demand for it might be 5 years from now, if ever.

I must admit being surprised by this. I would think a Vo-Tec should be the FIRST to implement teaching the new methods that will be coming out, even if years down the road. It will be years before their students are the journeymen in the field, and that shouldn't be the first time they have to adapt to the new methods and products. You'll retire before they become normal, but today's students will just be getting started as professionals by then.

As noted, the manufacturers are already geared up and making these products. They are the way it is done in much of the country. I can't remember if I've ever seen a main disco not outside at the service entrance, usually as a meter/main combo panel like this:

URL]


For space considerations, it doesn't have to be a combo, of course, but just a main breaker or some other type of disco:

URL]
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Personally, I would rather see disconnects installed on CT installations outside. A meter can be pulled with no problem. A CT installation with no disconnect outside has to be shut off from the XF.

Presume this is to protect the CT's, do you not have bypass inside your CT metering sockets?

If it is because of firefighters pulling meters and fact the CT meter doesn't disconnect power to the facility when it is pulled, who says they still don't try to pull meter thinking that will disconnect power even if there is a main switch right next to it?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not sure if anyone answered the question but we use what GE calls a trailer panel. It is a wp panel 200 amp with 8 cir and feed thru lugs. TM8-20RCUFL. About $125 from Home Depot







Other manufacturers have had basically same thing for years also. Some even with meter socket included.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The building code in Nebraska is composed of two codes the International Building Code (commercial building) and the International Residential Code. Whenever a new edition of the codes (IBC or IRC) is published, it is automatically considered the state building code. Bill drafters contend that the Nebraska Legislature has inadvertently delegated away their legislative authority to the International Codes Council which publishes these codes. (high lighted below)
I goggled this and don't know how old it is or if still in effect. What I am saying is most electricians don't know this.

Probably is correct, nobody is enforcing it though other than maybe in the larger cities that have building inspectors. State Electrical Division is a stand alone entity (and isn't even tax payer funded, just state controlled, they operate entirely on the fees they generate) and has inspectors statewide - even construction out in the boonies gets electrical inspections. Generally speaking for new construction/new services - POCO will not energize the service if they don't get notification from SED that there is a permit. Said structure out in the boonies can be very poorly constructed and not follow any building code at all and nobody does much of anything about it though, if anything insurance may refuse to insure it if it is bad enough that the insurance agent has any question about what is there.
 

Hv&Lv

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Presume this is to protect the CT's, do you not have bypass inside your CT metering sockets?

If it is because of firefighters pulling meters and fact the CT meter doesn't disconnect power to the facility when it is pulled, who says they still don't try to pull meter thinking that will disconnect power even if there is a main switch right next to it?

I prefer them for my safety and convenience. If I had disconnects before the CT metering installation, I wouldn’t have to take out an entire building for maintenance, or to disconnect this business if need be for something as simple as they shut down.
 
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