2023 NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE - Section 210.8(F)

[Bill Snyder]

Which brings up a question I've had. If a circuit runs straight from the breaker directly to the untilzation equipment with no j box, etc. where is the outlet ??

They will never tell you where the outlet is they will simply say it connects to one and if you don't believe them you are an idiot. But take it from me there are a ton of conflicts with the interpretation that all utilization equipment must connect to an outlet when 210.8(D) says hardwired or cord and plug connected why do they have to say both if everything connects to an outlet anyway?

 

[Bill Snyder]

So they based GFCi protection needed on HVAC on a case where there was no EGC and someone died. Now what makes you think that a Hack who didn't install an EGC (that would have cleared the breaker) is going to install a GFCI that costs more.

That's like saying. We have a case where someone died in a car crash. He wasn't wearing his seat belt and it didn't have a air bag. New law. All drivers need helmets .

Exactly my point and Colorado will most likely delete 210.8(E) and 210.8(F) just because of that

 

[Bill Snyder]

NEC doesn't require GFCI protection on a dryer. Some changes in 2020 however do require the receptacle, when used, to be protected if in locations mentioned in 210.8(A) or (B). Then (F) would require protection even if hardwired if it should happen to be located outdoors.

The items (D) covers are items that have previously required GFCI protection but were never specifically mentioned in 210.8. The details are still in 422 but 210.8 points us to them.

Exactly my point the back of the dryer is not a dryer outlet the receptacle is the outlet now they add 210.8(D) to the 2023 and dryers are required to be protected by a class A device hardwired or cord and plug connected. Why didn't they just say when connected to an outlet because they claim all branch circuits are connected to outlets but they can't show the location or the actual outlet point.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Outlets has ZERO to do with the lack of investigation for GFCI compatibility. This is much like the issue that resulted in 404.2(C)...a fight between the NEC and the standards writing organizatons.

It has everything to do with it! The change was a sneaky way to sell class A devices plain and simple they had no investigation for compatibility but we are just supposed to suffer for CMP-2s idea of safety? 100% arrogance and EGO 0% reality now it's biting them in the ass and I think it's funny!

 

[Bill Snyder]

What evidence do you have of this?

JAP>

GFPE will trip when the equipment faults prior to human contact class A protection is only required for human interaction with the equipment.

 

[jap]

GFPE will trip when the equipment faults prior to human contact class A protection is only required for human interaction with the equipment.

So what happens when a human may be in direct contact with a piece of equipment that faults while being protected only by GFPE ?

A 30ma fault vs. a 5ma fault I would assume.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Unless they change the definition of an outlet it seems an outlet covers the entire system.

It indicates where "currrent" is taken.

You don't have "current" unless the equipment is running regardless of whether it's hard wired or plugged into a receptacle in the wall.

Is a receptacle in the wall even considered an "outlet" seeing as how if there is not load connected to it and running there is no current ?

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

GFPE will trip when the equipment faults prior to human contact class A protection is only required for human interaction with the equipment.

Looking forward to reading all of your PIs on these issues.

 

[kwired]

Exactly my point the back of the dryer is not a dryer outlet the receptacle is the outlet now they add 210.8(D) to the 2023 and dryers are required to be protected by a class A device hardwired or cord and plug connected. Why didn't they just say when connected to an outlet because they claim all branch circuits are connected to outlets but they can't show the location or the actual outlet point.

I haven't studied 2023 at all yet other than what I have read about on this forum. But I don't agree with the need for GFCI protection in general of hard wired items other than maybe art 680 applications.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I haven't studied 2023 at all yet other than what I have read about on this forum. But I don't agree with the need for GFCI protection in general of hard wired items other than maybe art 680 applications.

I agree that the primary need for GFCI protection is cord and plug connected equipment because it is much more likely that the EGC will be comprimised with cord and plug connected equipment than it would be with hard wired equipment. However, I don't see the code going back on the requirements for some hard wired equipment to have GFCI protection.

 

[jap]

I agree that the primary need for GFCI protection is cord and plug connected equipment because it is much more likely that the EGC will be comprimised with cord and plug connected equipment than it would be with hard wired equipment. However, I don't see the code going back on the requirements for some hard wired equipment to have GFCI protection.

I've heard that said, but, Is that actually written somewhere or just an assumption?

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I've heard that said, but, Is that actually written somewhere or just an assumption?

JAP>

If you dig back through the ROPs and ROCs or maybe the even back in the TCRs and TCDs, you will probably find that stated in the proposals that resulted in the original GFCI requirements for receptacles in various locations.

 

[kwired]

If you dig back through the ROPs and ROCs or maybe the even back in the TCRs and TCDs, you will probably find that stated in the proposals that resulted in the original GFCI requirements for receptacles in various locations.

Even without digging through those the occasional exception to GFCI protection over the years when an assured grounding program was in force also kind of points out that compromised EGC pins in cord sets was a major driving force in the GFCI requirements. Sure hardwired connections can fail but are not as common.

 

[Bill Snyder]

I agree that the primary need for GFCI protection is cord and plug connected equipment because it is much more likely that the EGC will be comprimised with cord and plug connected equipment than it would be with hard wired equipment. However, I don't see the code going back on the requirements for some hard wired equipment to have GFCI protection.

Oh so now it's some hardwired equipment? I thought all hardwired equipment was connected to an outlet?

 

[Bill Snyder]

Looking forward to reading all of your PIs on these issues.

My first one is to CMP-17 to make the wiring compartment of utilization equipment called an appliance outlet and an informational note supporting that in 300.15(B).

 

[ActionDave]

Oh so now it's some hardwired equipment? I thought all hardwired equipment was connected to an outlet?

All hard wired equipment is connected to an outlet, but not all hardwired equipment requires GFCI protection.

 

[jap]

All hard wired equipment is connected to an outlet, but not all hardwired equipment requires GFCI protection.

I think that's his point.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Oh so now it's some hardwired equipment? I thought all hardwired equipment was connected to an outlet?

Right now the 2023 does not require all outlets to have GFCI protection, so it does not require all hard wired equipment to be GFCI protected.
The 2023 code requires the items listed in 210.8(D) to have GFCI protection either if they are cord and plug connected or if they are hardwired. It also requires any equipment supplied by the outlet specified in 210.8(F) to be GFCI protected. Those rules only cover a very small portion of hard wired equipment to have GFCI protection.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Right now the 2023 does not require all outlets to have GFCI protection, so it does not require all hard wired equipment to be GFCI protected.
The 2023 code requires the items listed in 210.8(D) to have GFCI protection either if they are cord and plug connected or if they are hardwired. It also requires any equipment supplied by the outlet specified in 210.8(F) to be GFCI protected. Those rules only cover a very small portion of hard wired equipment to have GFCI protection.

So a hardwired gate controller is not covered by 210.8(F)?

 

[Bill Snyder]

All hard wired equipment is connected to an outlet, but not all hardwired equipment requires GFCI protection.

So who gets to decide which hardwired equipment requires class A protection? It used to be the NEC language.