This question concerns Laundry circuits and receptacles in a dwelling unit laundry room. There is a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the laundry equipment. There is also a receptacle on the wall or, on a counter in the laundry. The question is, do these other receptacles have to be on the laundry circuit, a separate 20 amp receptacle circuit, or can they be on a 15 amp lighting circuit. There is no built in ironing board in the room, but the contention is that the receptacles could be used for an iron. Also does a built in ironing board have to be provided with a 20 amp circuit?
210-52(5f)
- Thread starter paulh
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
All that is required is that a 20 amp circuit for the laundry is in the laundry room and goes to no other rooms.
What you do with that circuit in the laundry room is not spelled out.
Use it for the washer and the iron if you want.
All that is required is that a 20 amp circuit for the laundry is in the laundry room and goes to no other rooms.
What you do with that circuit in the laundry room is not spelled out.
Use it for the washer and the iron if you want.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: 210-52(5f)
In addition, if your laundry area is in an unfinished part of a basement, the laundry receptacle DOES NOT count as one of the required receptacles for that unfinished space. Those receptacles will have to be GFI protected but the laundry receptacle DOES NOT.
Ref : EC Mag - Dec 02 "Code in Focus" by Charles Miller
Bob's answer is exactly correct. Additional receptacle(s) WITHIN the laundry area ARE PERMITTED to be on the laundry circuit but NOT REQUIRED to be.
In addition, if your laundry area is in an unfinished part of a basement, the laundry receptacle DOES NOT count as one of the required receptacles for that unfinished space. Those receptacles will have to be GFI protected but the laundry receptacle DOES NOT.
Ref : EC Mag - Dec 02 "Code in Focus" by Charles Miller
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob
"Use it for the washer and the iron if you want."
I disagree. 210.11(C)(2) says the outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). 210.52(F) requires only one outlet. 210.11(C)(2) This circuit shall have no other outlets.
One outlet required then no other outlets.????
Required and shall are the key words.
Mike P.
Bob
"Use it for the washer and the iron if you want."
I disagree. 210.11(C)(2) says the outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). 210.52(F) requires only one outlet. 210.11(C)(2) This circuit shall have no other outlets.
One outlet required then no other outlets.????
Required and shall are the key words.
Mike P.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
It also uses the plural form of outlets, in this case the no other outlets means no other outlets outside of the laundry.
Mike no where does it tell us that the circuit must feed the washer and/or dryer.
It also uses the plural form of outlets, in this case the no other outlets means no other outlets outside of the laundry.
Would you say this limits the number of outlets in the bathroom to only one?
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: 210-52(5f)
Mike, of all the places that I've worked and Code classes that I've attended, this question has always been in line with Bob's answer. So, I have to agree with Bob until I'm convinced otherwise.
I see nowhere in 210.52(F) that requires ONLY one receptacle outlet, rather it states AT LEAST one.
In 201.11(C)(2), it states that at least one 20 amp branch circut Shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacled outlet(s) required by 210.52(F) (which requires at least one ).
The no other outlets (from what I've gathered) means you can't add a receptacle on the other side of the wall for a garage outlet, or a family room outlet, rear weatherproof, hallway, etc.....
Should I now be rethinking this??
Todd
Mike, of all the places that I've worked and Code classes that I've attended, this question has always been in line with Bob's answer. So, I have to agree with Bob until I'm convinced otherwise.
I see nowhere in 210.52(F) that requires ONLY one receptacle outlet, rather it states AT LEAST one.
In 201.11(C)(2), it states that at least one 20 amp branch circut Shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacled outlet(s) required by 210.52(F) (which requires at least one ).
The no other outlets (from what I've gathered) means you can't add a receptacle on the other side of the wall for a garage outlet, or a family room outlet, rear weatherproof, hallway, etc.....
Should I now be rethinking this??
Todd
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob
"Would you say this limits the number of outlets in the bathroom to only one?"
No.
Let's try again.
210.52(F) Only "requires" one. Hold that thought. Yes you may have more. But put that out of your mind right now.
Now since only one is required remove the (s) in 210.11(C)(2). Now read the article without the (s) and you will start to see my point.
Mike P.
Bob
"Would you say this limits the number of outlets in the bathroom to only one?"
No.
Let's try again.
210.52(F) Only "requires" one. Hold that thought. Yes you may have more. But put that out of your mind right now.
Now since only one is required remove the (s) in 210.11(C)(2). Now read the article without the (s) and you will start to see my point.
Mike P.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
Mike I am sorry I just don't buy it and it seems few others do to.
Look at Goldstar's reference
Mike I am sorry I just don't buy it and it seems few others do to.
Why?
Look at Goldstar's reference
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
OK
Let us start with 210.11(C)
It says that the "at least one additional 20-ampere circuit shall provide"
So we need one more circuit. Yes?
Continues "to supply the laundry receptacles outlet(s) required".
So some # of outlets have to be required. Yes?
Continues " by 210.52(F)".
We both know that we have to read 210.52(F).
210.52(F) "requires" only one receptacle outlet. It does not require switches or lights. Yes?
At least one does not mean that you have to have more. Yes?
Since only one is required we agree that one is the number. Not two, not three, not four.
Since one is singular we must ignore the (s) in 210.11(C)(2) since there is not more than one. Yes?
It continues "This circuit shall have no other outlets". Yes?
I agree that the intent might not be this, however the code does not reflect (or state) the intent.
Mike P.
OK
Let us start with 210.11(C)
It says that the "at least one additional 20-ampere circuit shall provide"
So we need one more circuit. Yes?
Continues "to supply the laundry receptacles outlet(s) required".
So some # of outlets have to be required. Yes?
Continues " by 210.52(F)".
We both know that we have to read 210.52(F).
210.52(F) "requires" only one receptacle outlet. It does not require switches or lights. Yes?
At least one does not mean that you have to have more. Yes?
Since only one is required we agree that one is the number. Not two, not three, not four.
Since one is singular we must ignore the (s) in 210.11(C)(2) since there is not more than one. Yes?
It continues "This circuit shall have no other outlets". Yes?
I agree that the intent might not be this, however the code does not reflect (or state) the intent.
Mike P.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
PS
I could not find the www.ecmag.com article.
If you have a link please post it.
Mike P.
PS
I could not find the www.ecmag.com article.
If you have a link please post it.
Mike P.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
Now i am confused.
If i run a 20 amp dedicated single for washer, i have met code.That part is easy.
If i want additional receptacles in laundry they could come off this circuit ? yes or no
If i have additional receptacles they must either be off that first circuit or an additional circuit that stays in the laundry ? yes or no
Can a branch circuit from lets say the living room feed a 2nd receptacle in the laundry? im thinking not,but to want to be clear on this.
Now i am confused.
If i run a 20 amp dedicated single for washer, i have met code.That part is easy.
If i want additional receptacles in laundry they could come off this circuit ? yes or no
If i have additional receptacles they must either be off that first circuit or an additional circuit that stays in the laundry ? yes or no
Can a branch circuit from lets say the living room feed a 2nd receptacle in the laundry? im thinking not,but to want to be clear on this.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
Why do accept this for bathrooms but not laundry's.?
Here is a link to the article.
Let me ask you where the code states that this 20 amp circuit must feed the washing machine?
Do you require that the 20 amp outlet be a single and not a duplex.
[ February 13, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Mike, exactly, the code does not reflect the intent of the outlet(s) only that the laundry will have a 20 amp circuit for the outlet(s)
No, the CMP put the "(s)" there I do not have to ignore it
Yes and 210.11(C)(3) uses nearly the same language for the bathroom circuit but you accept that the CMP means no other outlets other than bathrooms not literally no other receptacles.
Why do accept this for bathrooms but not laundry's.?
Here is a link to the article.
Let me ask you where the code states that this 20 amp circuit must feed the washing machine?
Do you require that the 20 amp outlet be a single and not a duplex.
[ February 13, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
"Now i am confused."
Me too.
"If i run a 20 amp dedicated single for washer, i have met code.That part is easy."
Yes
"If i want additional receptacles in laundry they could come off this circuit ? yes or no"
I say no.
"If i have additional receptacles they must either be off that first circuit"
First circuit I say no.
"or an additional circuit that stays in the laundry ? yes or no"
It does not have to remain "in" the room.
"Can a branch circuit from lets say the living room feed a 2nd receptacle in the laundry?"
Why not?
"im thinking not,but to want to be clear on this"
Clear as mud.
Mike P.
"Now i am confused."
Me too.
"If i run a 20 amp dedicated single for washer, i have met code.That part is easy."
Yes
"If i want additional receptacles in laundry they could come off this circuit ? yes or no"
I say no.
"If i have additional receptacles they must either be off that first circuit"
First circuit I say no.
"or an additional circuit that stays in the laundry ? yes or no"
It does not have to remain "in" the room.
"Can a branch circuit from lets say the living room feed a 2nd receptacle in the laundry?"
Why not?
"im thinking not,but to want to be clear on this"
Clear as mud.
Mike P.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob
Thanx for the link.
"As stated in 210.11(C)(1), the laundry receptacle outlet must be supplied by a 20-ampere branch circuit. Also, receptacle outlets outside of the laundry area are not permitted on the laundry branch circuit."
Were does it say "outside" of the laundry. I do not see that in the code.
It says no other outlets.
Please note that the above quote from http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=578
refers to "THE" it does not say these.
Mike P.
Bob
Thanx for the link.
"As stated in 210.11(C)(1), the laundry receptacle outlet must be supplied by a 20-ampere branch circuit. Also, receptacle outlets outside of the laundry area are not permitted on the laundry branch circuit."
Were does it say "outside" of the laundry. I do not see that in the code.
It says no other outlets.
Please note that the above quote from http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=578
refers to "THE" it does not say these.
Mike P.
- Location
- Massachusetts
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
Why can't they just let Mike Holt write the NEC
That man makes things clear,and not just on the laundry
Why can't they just let Mike Holt write the NEC
That man makes things clear,and
not just on the laundry
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob
You just gave me the bullet.
"Laundry Branch Circuit. One 20 ampere branch circuit is required for the laundry room receptacle outlet(s) [210-52(f)]. The laundry room receptacle circuit cannot serve any other outlet, such as the laundry room lighting or receptacles in other rooms.
The NEC does not require a separate circuit for the washing machine. Only a separate circuit for the laundry room receptacle(s) of which one can be for the washing machine and the others can be for convenience, Fig. 5-22."
I think you are looking at the washing machine outlet. I am not talking about it.
In the above quote from Mike, he says no other outlets. He say "such" as.
You make me rethink my posts. I ask you to sit back and shake your head and look at my points again.
Isn't this fun???
Mike P.
Bob
You just gave me the bullet.
"Laundry Branch Circuit. One 20 ampere branch circuit is required for the laundry room receptacle outlet(s) [210-52(f)]. The laundry room receptacle circuit cannot serve any other outlet, such as the laundry room lighting or receptacles in other rooms.
The NEC does not require a separate circuit for the washing machine. Only a separate circuit for the laundry room receptacle(s) of which one can be for the washing machine and the others can be for convenience, Fig. 5-22."
I think you are looking at the washing machine outlet. I am not talking about it.
In the above quote from Mike, he says no other outlets. He say "such" as.
You make me rethink my posts. I ask you to sit back and shake your head and look at my points again.
Isn't this fun???
Mike P.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
Mike I do not get what you mean with this.
One of these can or will feed the washer and the others are for whatever you want.
[ February 13, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Mike I do not get what you mean with this.
One, two, ten or twenty receptacle outlets can be on the required 20 amp circuit as long as these are in the laundry room.
One of these can or will feed the washer and the others are for whatever you want.
[ February 13, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 210-52(5f)
Lets not forget 210.50(C).
210.52(F) does not state 'rooms', it states 'areas'. I used to think like Mike P. and had this discussion with Mike Holt months ago - he asked me to research it and I contacted a bunch of people. The part that cinched my decision to change my mind was the ROP (Report on Proposals). In the substantiation it is stated that the Laundry branch circuit can supply other receptacles for laundry (irons, steamers, etc...), but for no other purpose.
And yes you can have other circuits in the laundry room to supply other loads.
Pierre
Lets not forget 210.50(C).
210.52(F) does not state 'rooms', it states 'areas'. I used to think like Mike P. and had this discussion with Mike Holt months ago - he asked me to research it and I contacted a bunch of people. The part that cinched my decision to change my mind was the ROP (Report on Proposals). In the substantiation it is stated that the Laundry branch circuit can supply other receptacles for laundry (irons, steamers, etc...), but for no other purpose.
And yes you can have other circuits in the laundry room to supply other loads.
Pierre
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
Trouble maker.
If the laundry is in an unfinished basement where exactly do the laundry area outlets that are not required to be GFCI protected end and the unfinished basement GFCI protected outlets start.
Trouble maker.
Great :roll: now we have to decide where a laundry "area" begins and ends.
If the laundry is in an unfinished basement where exactly do the laundry area outlets that are not required to be GFCI protected end and the unfinished basement GFCI protected outlets start.
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