210-52(5f)

[pierre]

Re: 210-52(5f)

I respectfully disagree with Charles Miller's response, if I am reading it correctly. The NEC does not mention 'laundry room', it mentions 'laundry area'. 210.50(C) states the laundry receptacle has to be within 6 feet of the equipment. If there are receptacles in the same room, and they are more than 6 feet from the intended equipment, they can be on any circuit you like.

Pierre

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Pierre ,where does it say you have EQUIPMENT ?
All it said was receptacle for LAUNDRY.It never said what it would be used for.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Pierre ,where does it say you have EQUIPMENT ?
All it said was receptacle for LAUNDRY.It never said what it would be used for.

Jim, read Pierre's post again, and notice that he cites the code section he is refering to. That is where it says equipment.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Mike,
Charles Miller (no offense) can not cite a CODE that states the 'WASHER' outlet must be a 20 amp circut. It's not there. It says laundry outlet(s).

Now, after I've installed the 'required' laundry outlet(s), why can I not install a 15amp washer circut if the manufacturer instructions state 'install a 15amp circut'???
As long as it complies with 210.50(C)??

Is the washer a piece of utilization equipment?

Nowhere in 210.11(C)(2) does it state that ALL outlets specified be 20 amp. Look at (C)(1) just above.

To me, that intent is clear. The inspector also had no problem with this, and said it would be a violation if it were on a 20amp circut do to the instructions.

Now, let's define 'Laundry Area'....anyone???

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Ryan ,i did read it carefully,and can't see where it says we MUST have equipment.Only says if there is equipment it shall be within 6 ft .Nothing says we have a washer,dryer or ironing board.
And 210.11c2 tells me to install at least one 20 amp branch circuit,to supply laundry receptacle outlet(s).It says nothing about what they will be used for.

[ February 17, 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: 210-52(5f)

By Jim: Only says if there is equipment

Now I am cornfused

I don't see this in any of the sections quoted?

210.11(C)(2) direct us to install an extra 20 amp circuit for a laundry. and there shall be no other outlets.

210.23(A) Exception tells us that they shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified for the laundry.

210.50(C) tells us it shall be installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the intended location of the appliance.

210.52(F) Tells us at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.

210.52(G) tells us where installed in garages and basements shall be an extra GFCI protected receptacle in addition to any provided for laundry equipment.

Now read 90.5 real good.

With the exception of articles for trailers and manufactured homes, Did I miss anything?

[ February 18, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Best thing to do is buy an apartment and take clothes to laundromat LOL
I am cornfused too.Seems like one article could have just told us what to put in or not.I really don't much care who is right.Would like to know exactly what they intended.We all know most laundry rooms will have a washer and dryer (might be gas)and a good job will have at least one wall receptacle.If this many guys can come up with so many interpretations then the code book has failed.

 

[pierre]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Jim
You seem to be very good at taking parts of the NEC and trashing the words written.
I tell people who complain, that I will only listen to them if they are willing to do something about the subject they are complaining about.

My challenge to you is the same, draft the proper code section(s) to describe the installation of this subject. Using section references in the proper Article(s) so we can reference it.

Pierre

[ February 18, 2004, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[roger]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Jim,

Only says if there is equipment it shall be within 6 ft

so far I've been able to follow all the others as far as their NEC quotes, but as Wayne says, I don't see this wording anywhere.

What page are you reading this on?

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

I will take one more stab at this.
From 210.50c
Appliance receptacle outlets installed in a dwelling unit for specific appliances,such as laundry equipment,shall be installed within 1.8 m (6ft)of the intended location of the appliance.
The bold is by me.

From this i only see the restrictions on where i put the outlet IF i have a washer,dryer,or other specific appliances.
I do not see in this section or any others where it says i must have any appliances

Am i reading this wrong ? Did i miss something anyplace in NEC that says i must have a washer ?

 

[goldstar]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Best thing to do is buy an apartment and take clothes to laundromat

I agree with Jim !!! Before I expended the amount of energy we've all put into deciding whether to install an additional receptacle off the same 20 amp laundry outlet, tap off the dining room outlet, run a separate 15 amp outlet or run 5 new outlets I'd rather bring my laundry to a laundromat and not have to worry whether the receptacle outlet I'm using is code compliant.

There were a lot of "what if's" posted here :
What if I ran an additional outlet off the dining room circuit ?

There's already a 20 amp branch circuit for the laundry and you would be code compliant if you added an additional receptacle for ironing. If you're that concerned run a 12/3 and add the receptacle outlet off the 2nd phase. The down side is that you eat up another point in the breaker panel and you wouldn't be able to use that outlet for anything else but receptacles in that area. There is some merit to doing this though; whoever the genius was that installed the laundry circuit in my house also installed the dishwasher on the same circuit. I cannot run all 3 appliances at the same time.

What if I tapped off the lighting circuit and installed a 15 amp receptacle ?

Why would you ? There's already a 20 amp circuit for the laundry ?

What if I installed a single receptacle for the washer ?

Why would you ? A single receptacle is more expensive than a duplex. Besides which, if you have a gas dryer wouldn't it be more convenient to plug it into the 2nd half of the duplex or would you install an additional single receptacle ?

Why can't I install a 15 amp receptacle outlet for my washer if that's what the mfr. requires ?

Because the NEC indicates that a 20 amp receptacle outlet is required for a laundry area. Just because a mfr. states that their machine will operate on a 15 amp circuit doesn't make it code compliant to install a 15 amp receptacle outlet (unless it states that the maximum breaker size should be 15 amps - which I've never seen). A washer is not (in many cases) the only appliance component of the laundry area. Dryers are also run off the laundry circuit. And, if you only ran a 15 amp circuit it may not hold if both appliances are running at the same time.

I think we're all guilty of reading too much into what the NEC doesn't state rather than what it does state. By the way, in Article 100 under "definitions" there are no definitions for "area", "room" or "shall". Does anyone know exactly what they might mean with respect to the NEC ? Sounds like an ESL course to me!!!

 

[roger]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Goldstar, as far as "shall", read 90.5, and refer to the literal meanings of "room" and "area"

Roger

[ February 18, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Jim
It says 6' of the intended location . doen't this mean that even if the home owner decides not to install a washer it still has to be put there???


210.50(C) tells us it shall be installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the intended location of the appliance.

Intended means that it is intended to do but don't mean it will happen. even so it says shall be installed. so this say it has to be installed even if the home owner doesn't put it there.

Haven't you ever "intended" to do somthing but didn't?

[ February 19, 2004, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: 210-52(5f)

The washer branch wants to be 20A, that doesn't mean the receptical needs to though (unless its a single). A 15A duplex should work fine here.

Also read the intro to 210.11 - this whole thing only applies to "BRANCH CIRCUITS REQUIRED".

Once beyond the code minimums, you would be free to wallpaper the room and ceiling with 15A recepticals on 15A branch(s)

As Yogi Berra said - its like deja vu all over again. This is basically the same argument I successfully used to defend installation of a supplemental 15A branch receptical in a kitchen where all required minimums had previously been met.

 

[iwire]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Originally posted by tonyi:
This is basically the same argument I successfully used to defend installation of a supplemental 15A branch receptical in a kitchen where all required minimums had previously been met.

I hope you did not strain your arm patting yourself on the back. :roll:

 

[goldstar]

Re: 210-52(5f)

as far as "shall", read 90.5

Roger, thanks for pointing that out.

doesn't this mean that even if the home owner decides not to install a washer it still has to be put there???

Haven't you ever "intended" to do nothing but didn't?

Hurk, I'm not sure where you're going with this but if we assume that we're starting out wiring a new residence there has to be an "intended" location for the laundry same as there has to be an intended location for the kitchen, dining room, etc. If plans change and those locations are relocated then you would have to apply all the rules to those areas. If it is decided that the washer and dryer end up in the garage it not only affects us but the plumbers have to install water and drainage lines.

The washer branch wants to be 20A, that doesn't mean the receptacle needs to though (unless its a single).

Tonyi, we've had this argument in this forum also. It was always my understanding that if you used a 20 amp "single" receptacle that the branch circuit wiring to it should also be rated at 20 amps. Others had argued that the receptacle rating could be lower than the branch circuit wiring and vice versa. I still think you and I are correct but that's another topic (if someone wants to revisit that)

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

"Jim
It says 6' of the intended location . doen't this mean that even if the home owner decides not to install a washer it still has to be put there???"


"210.50(C) tells us it shall be installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the intended location of the appliance."

Do we agree that no place has NEC ever said we SHALL have a washer?
So if i don't own or want a washer ever ,then where would the INTENDED place be? Show room floor?

I think this pot has been stired more than enough.
This has gone on for a week now and all thats been proved is that the code was not clear at all over how to wire this laundry.
For my part i have learned i need not waste a GFCI
I shall continue to run a dedicated 20 for the washer and possible dryer.And shall run 1 additional 20 amp branch for the other receptacles in this laundry (should there be any).
I also run 10-3 for the dryer unless its gas.
The lights off a lighting/general purpose circuit.
This has always passed and seems like the right way to go.

[ February 19, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[kiss]

Re: 210-52(5f)

If I have a washing machine, and a gas dryer in the laundry, and the 2 machines are not close enough to each other for the cords to reach the outlet, does that mean that I CAN NOT
tap a second receptacle from my dedicated 20AMP line? So now I would have a 20Amp line feeding
2 receptacles in the laundry for my W/D.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 210-52(5f)

Yes you could do that.Your allowed other receptacle(s) on that branch circuit.
Just no other rooms on that circuit
210.11c2
They can be duplex if you like and even add a 3rd or 4th.
I personally don't like to see that but it is legal.

[ February 19, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: 210-52(5f)

By Jim: Do we agree that no place has NEC ever said we SHALL have a washer?

Yep it don't say it shall have a washer. But it does say it SHALL have a 20 amp laundry circuit and it SHALL be with in 6' of the intended location of the equipment. At least when the final inspection is done. by then we should know where it's going.

I believe that most building codes also require space for a laundry. so in a single family dwelling there will be a laundry somewhere.

I have had to install a receptacle in a basement and the plumber had to install the hookup for a washer when the home owner didn't want one anyway. but the inspector just said this is a building standard minimum that must be met as when the house is sold the new owners might want one.