hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob now you opened another can of worm's LOL
Bob now you opened another can of worm's LOL
210-52(5f)
- Thread starter paulh
- Start date
- Status
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob
I am not the trouble maker, just the trouble continuer
You may not be old enough, but remember when the laundry machines were in a corner of the basement?
That is why 210.50(C).
I have recently seen some very nice laundry 'rooms' - pull down ironing, steamers, counters for folding, etc...
Pierre
Bob
I am not the trouble maker, just the trouble continuer
You may not be old enough, but remember when the laundry machines were in a corner of the basement?
That is why 210.50(C).
I have recently seen some very nice laundry 'rooms' - pull down ironing, steamers, counters for folding, etc...
Pierre
Re: 210-52(5f)
Speaking of being old enough to remember when.
I remember in 1947, section 2112 2 of the code said; "At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the connection of laundry appliances. This receptacle shall be 3-pole, of a type designed for grounding."
Roger
[ February 13, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Speaking of being old enough to remember when.
I remember in 1947, section 2112 2 of the code said; "At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the connection of laundry appliances. This receptacle shall be 3-pole, of a type designed for grounding."
Roger
[ February 13, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 210-52(5f)
That was just like the first one that i had when I got married LOL
But it was in "77" I found it in the naghbors trash and it looked like it was in good condition so I put it in the basment right dead center(thats where the drain was lol) used a short garden hose and wala it worked. used it for at least 2 years for work clothes. it did a very good job getting out the dirt.
That was just like the first one that i had when I got married LOL
But it was in "77" I found it in the naghbors trash and it looked like it was in good condition so I put it in the basment right dead center(thats where the drain was lol) used a short garden hose and wala it worked. used it for at least 2 years for work clothes. it did a very good job getting out the dirt.
alex winkler
Member
Re: 210-52(5f)
Defining a laundry area at our house would be very difficult. If I were to use the definition “were clothes are washed” it would be our basement where the washing machine is, the area around the kitchen sink and lavatories for hand wash stuff, and the area around the front yard hose bib for my muddy socks. If the definition included drying clothes also, it would be the dryer area, the outside deck, and areas around shower rods and assorted door handles. God forbid it includes where dirty close are kept also, then I would have to include the entire floor area of both my teenage daughters bedrooms and the back seat of the minivan.
Defining a laundry area at our house would be very difficult. If I were to use the definition “were clothes are washed” it would be our basement where the washing machine is, the area around the kitchen sink and lavatories for hand wash stuff, and the area around the front yard hose bib for my muddy socks. If the definition included drying clothes also, it would be the dryer area, the outside deck, and areas around shower rods and assorted door handles. God forbid it includes where dirty close are kept also, then I would have to include the entire floor area of both my teenage daughters bedrooms and the back seat of the minivan.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
Just be happy that you were not wiring in Collier county Florida about 9 years ago.For a while they insisted the laundry room was a habitable room and enforced 2 ft and 6 ft rule(go ahead and laugh but it happened)
[ February 13, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Just be happy that you were not wiring in Collier county Florida about 9 years ago.For a while they insisted the laundry room was a habitable room and enforced 2 ft and 6 ft rule(go ahead and laugh but it happened)
[ February 13, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 210-52(5f)
Roger
If you make enough dust with your shop maybe you can stop the encroachment of the laundry 'area' "the good ole days"
Pierre
Roger
If you make enough dust with your shop maybe you can stop the encroachment of the laundry 'area'
"the good ole days"Pierre
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 210-52(5f)
Pierre
I remember geting a few blacl and blue fingers from the ringer washing my work clothes. It hurts
and when my sister was about 7 she had hair all the way down her back. she was playing around the washer my grandma had and some how got her hair in the ringer luckly my dad was there and through it in reverse but it took a chunk of hair out before he did. Ouch!
Pierre
I remember geting a few blacl and blue fingers from the ringer washing my work clothes. It hurts
and when my sister was about 7 she had hair all the way down her back. she was playing around the washer my grandma had and some how got her hair in the ringer luckly my dad was there and through it in reverse but it took a chunk of hair out before he did. Ouch!
mileselect
Member
Re: 210-52(5f)
paulh,
When I was taking code classes in preparation
for the Master exam, one of my instructors(a City of Atlanta inspector) stressed LEARN THE DEFINITIONS IN ARTICLE 100! If you look up 'Outlets' and 'Utilization Equipment' I believe your question will be answered. Also,the word 'Outlet(s)' can be either singular or plural-it's your choice.I think the code making panel's intent was to prevent lighting outlets in the laundry space or room and 'outlets' in other spaces or rooms from being connected to the required Laundry circuit. Art. 210.11(C)(2) covers it well.
paulh,
When I was taking code classes in preparation
for the Master exam, one of my instructors(a City of Atlanta inspector) stressed LEARN THE DEFINITIONS IN ARTICLE 100! If you look up 'Outlets' and 'Utilization Equipment' I believe your question will be answered. Also,the word 'Outlet(s)' can be either singular or plural-it's your choice.I think the code making panel's intent was to prevent lighting outlets in the laundry space or room and 'outlets' in other spaces or rooms from being connected to the required Laundry circuit. Art. 210.11(C)(2) covers it well.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Can the washing machine be on a 15 amp circuit?
Mike P.
Can the washing machine be on a 15 amp circuit?
Mike P.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
no 210.11c2
no 210.11c2
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Why not?
If I install a 20 amp circuit I am code compliant.
Does it say that I can not install other outlets(circuits)?
Mike P.
[ February 15, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: jxofaltrds ]
Why not?
If I install a 20 amp circuit I am code compliant.
Does it say that I can not install other outlets(circuits)?
Mike P.
[ February 15, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: jxofaltrds ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
"Can the washing machine be on a 15 amp circuit?"
It says at LEAST ONE ADDITIONAL 20
Where do you read 15 as being ok ?
I know where your trying to go,but there was no exception like we have for a frig.
[ February 15, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
"Can the washing machine be on a 15 amp circuit?"
It says at LEAST ONE ADDITIONAL 20
Where do you read 15 as being ok ?
I know where your trying to go,but there was no exception like we have for a frig.
[ February 15, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 210-52(5f)
So when it says "at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)"
It means in addition to the other required branch circuits.
It makes great sense to do so but is it required?
My washer is a large capacity and the tag says 10 amps.
Wouldn't the wording of 210.52(F) be "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the clothes washing machine." if that is what the CMP intended?
Remember that the above is from the section of 210 that is called "Branch Circuits Required"
So when it says "at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)"
It means in addition to the other required branch circuits.
I do not see anything in either of these that actual requires the 20 amp circuit to feed the washer.
It makes great sense to do so but is it required?
My washer is a large capacity and the tag says 10 amps.
So a 15 amp circuit would comply with this for my washer.
Wouldn't the wording of 210.52(F) be "In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the clothes washing machine." if that is what the CMP intended?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
Bob,i can't argue that a 15 would not run that washer.I do think if they intended that ,we would have the exception added like they did for a frig.
"at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets."
"This circuit shall have no other outlets."is referring to "at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit"
Seems they are indicating i can have more than one 20 amp circuit.
Of course one could argue that it never said i could or could not have that 240 for my dryer.
Once again they have used poor wording.
Bob,i can't argue that a 15 would not run that washer.I do think if they intended that ,we would have the exception added like they did for a frig.
"at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets."
"This circuit shall have no other outlets."is referring to "at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit"
Seems they are indicating i can have more than one 20 amp circuit.
Of course one could argue that it never said i could or could not have that 240 for my dryer.
Once again they have used poor wording.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: 210-52(5f)
We just got done with a very large residential addition that had an existing laundry room in the basement.
In the second floor hallway, the GC framed in a closet just large enough to fit new, front loading, stacked (not a stacker unit) washer and dryer. the dryer was electric and the washer spec's called for a 'dedicated 15amp supply.'
What would you run?
We ran a 15amp supply.
I only wish my guys had grabbed the book so that I could make a copy.
We just got done with a very large residential addition that had an existing laundry room in the basement.
In the second floor hallway, the GC framed in a closet just large enough to fit new, front loading, stacked (not a stacker unit) washer and dryer. the dryer was electric and the washer spec's called for a 'dedicated 15amp supply.'
What would you run?
We ran a 15amp supply.
I only wish my guys had grabbed the book so that I could make a copy.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
Todd
In your case the recp. outlet should have been a 20 amp. if it was the only one. "Laundry Areas".
Mike P.
Todd
In your case the recp. outlet should have been a 20 amp. if it was the only one. "Laundry Areas".
Mike P.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 210-52(5f)
Why would anyone use 14-2 instead of 12-2?
what could you save 2 cents a foot?
and if that job got caught on a 15 what would the rewire cost your company?
Why would anyone use 14-2 instead of 12-2?
what could you save 2 cents a foot?
and if that job got caught on a 15 what would the rewire cost your company?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: 210-52(5f)
I thought I would ask.
Hi Mike,
The required receptacle outlet installed for the washing machine must be a
20-ampere branch circuit. If the room is a laundry room, other receptacles
in the same room can be on the same washing machine circuit. Lighting in the
laundry room cannot be on the same circuit. Receptacles outside the laundry
cannot be on the same circuit.
All the receptacles in the laundry are not required on the same circuit.
There could be five receptacle outlets in the laundry room and each could be
on a separate circuit. All of these circuits are considered laundry
circuits, and each must be a 20-ampere circuit. Other receptacles outside
the laundry room cannot be on any of these laundry circuits. On the other
hand, all five receptacles could be on the same circuit.
Charles Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Parks" <jxofaltrds@midohio.net>
To: <charles@charlesRmiller.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:52 AM
Subject: NEC 210.52(F)
> Mr. Miller
>
> After reading your articles in the Jan. 03, & Dec. 02 EC Mag, I would like
> your opinion on the following:
>
http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=002938
> ;p=1 .
>
> Specifically regarding my views in this post. My posts are the ones by
> Jxofaltrds.
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Michael R. Parks
>
> Electrical Contractor OH. Lic. #26286
> Electrical Safety Inspector OH. Cert. #1820
> Member of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors
> Member of the National Association of Fire Investigators
> Member of the National Fire Protection Association
> Member Electrical Section of NFPA
> Member Research Section of NFPA
> Plumbing Contractor OH. Lic. #26286
>
> Lic. #'s displayed as required by the State of Ohio, Ohio Construction
> Industry Examining Board.
>
>
>
>
I thought I would ask.
Hi Mike,
The required receptacle outlet installed for the washing machine must be a
20-ampere branch circuit. If the room is a laundry room, other receptacles
in the same room can be on the same washing machine circuit. Lighting in the
laundry room cannot be on the same circuit. Receptacles outside the laundry
cannot be on the same circuit.
All the receptacles in the laundry are not required on the same circuit.
There could be five receptacle outlets in the laundry room and each could be
on a separate circuit. All of these circuits are considered laundry
circuits, and each must be a 20-ampere circuit. Other receptacles outside
the laundry room cannot be on any of these laundry circuits. On the other
hand, all five receptacles could be on the same circuit.
Charles Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Parks" <jxofaltrds@midohio.net>
To: <charles@charlesRmiller.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:52 AM
Subject: NEC 210.52(F)
> Mr. Miller
>
> After reading your articles in the Jan. 03, & Dec. 02 EC Mag, I would like
> your opinion on the following:
>
http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=002938
> ;p=1 .
>
> Specifically regarding my views in this post. My posts are the ones by
> Jxofaltrds.
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Michael R. Parks
>
> Electrical Contractor OH. Lic. #26286
> Electrical Safety Inspector OH. Cert. #1820
> Member of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors
> Member of the National Association of Fire Investigators
> Member of the National Fire Protection Association
> Member Electrical Section of NFPA
> Member Research Section of NFPA
> Plumbing Contractor OH. Lic. #26286
>
> Lic. #'s displayed as required by the State of Ohio, Ohio Construction
> Industry Examining Board.
>
>
>
>
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