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210.8(F) GFCI Protection

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kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
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EC
don_resqcapt19 said:
You won't . As far as I know there are no references to HVAC in the NEC that do not send you to 440.
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All items covered by art 440 have a hermetic refrigerant compressor in them. No such compressor, then something between 422 and 427 will likely cover it if it is "HVAC" equipment in nature.
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
wwhitney said:
OK, great. That means the utilization equipment is not part of the branch circuit, right? They are different, disjoint.

Then as the electrons move (to use a simplified model) from the grid, through the premises wiring, through the load, and back to the grid, at some point they leave the branch circuit and enter the utilization equipment (or vice versa) That point is the outlet. That's what the definition says.

Cheers, Wayne
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So by definition individual branch circuit should not exist because it does not mention an outlet point?
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
There's a reason they are being deleted
 

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W

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
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Retired
Bill Snyder said:
So by definition individual branch circuit should not exist because it does not mention an outlet point?
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We covered that already. Just because you are obsessed with your misinterpretation of "outlet" doesn't mean that every NEC definition that could mention an outlet has to mention it.

Since you're just repeating the same wrong arguments without actually engaging or responding to the specifics of what we're saying, then I'd say we're done here.

Cheers, Wayne
 
M

M&M

Member
Location
Arizona
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
MadElec75 said:
Were do outdoor electric infrared heaters come into play with the GFCI rule? Are they exempt until 2026 NEC as they may be considered HVAC? Electric infrared heaters are mounted at the same height or higher than lighting fixtures which are exempt. Has anyone run into this.
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wwhitney said:
We covered that already. Just because you are obsessed with your misinterpretation of "outlet" doesn't mean that every NEC definition that could mention an outlet has to mention it.

Since you're just repeating the same wrong arguments without actually engaging or responding to the specifics of what we're saying, then I'd say we're done here.

Cheers, Wayne
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If the heaters are controlled by a sub panel with branch circuit protection, fed from the main dist. panel with single phase power no neutral, how would you be able to use GFCI protection without the neutral wire? The control can also be built with fuses and how would you get away with not having gfci protection with fuses? If the heater control panel requires a feed of 50 amps or less, it could be feed with a GFCI breaker in the main panel. But if it is over 50 amps then we cant feed with as GFCI device from the main panel.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
M&M said:
If the heaters are controlled by a sub panel with branch circuit protection, fed from the main dist. panel with single phase power no neutral, how would you be able to use GFCI protection without the neutral wire? The control can also be built with fuses and how would you get away with not having gfci protection with fuses? If the heater control panel requires a feed of 50 amps or less, it could be feed with a GFCI breaker in the main panel. But if it is over 50 amps then we cant feed with as GFCI device from the main panel.
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Since the rule in question only applies to one and two family dwellings, it extremely unlikely that there would be any panel that does not have a neutral. There are GFCI breakers larger than 50 amps.
 
M

M&M

Member
Location
Arizona
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
don_resqcapt19 said:
Since the rule in question only applies to one and two family dwellings, it extremely unlikely that there would be any panel that does not have a neutral. There are GFCI breakers larger than 50 amps.
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The control panel for the heaters, does not have a neutral as there are no components inside that require a neutral
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
MadElec75 said:
Are you saying then that a neutral wire needs to be feed to the supplemental (heater control) panel to allow for GFCI breakers to be used in the branch circuits or that the supplemental panel can be protected from the source panel?
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That the GFCI protection can be in the source panel.
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
don_resqcapt19 said:
That is 100% false. I just spoke to him the other day on this issue.
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Is an A/C condenser an outdoor outlet?



No, an A/C (air conditioning) condenser is not an outdoor outlet. An A/C condenser is a unit that is typically installed outside of a building and is responsible for releasing the heat that is absorbed by the refrigerant in the air conditioning system. It is an integral part of the air conditioning system and does not provide any electrical outlets.
An outdoor outlet, on the other hand, is an electrical outlet that is installed outside of a building, usually for the purpose of providing power to devices such as lawn mowers, outdoor lights, or other electrical equipment. It is not part of the air conditioning system and is typically installed separately from the A/C condenser.
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
don_resqcapt19 said:
That the GFCI protection can be in the source panel.
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Is an electrical disconnect an outdoor outlet?



No, an electrical disconnect and an outdoor outlet are two different things.
An electrical disconnect is a switch that is used to disconnect the electrical power supply to a building or a specific circuit within a building. It is typically installed indoors and is used for maintenance or emergency purposes to turn off the power to a building or specific equipment.
An outdoor outlet, on the other hand, is a type of electrical outlet that is specifically designed to be used outside. It is typically installed on the exterior of a building and can be used to power outdoor equipment such as lawnmowers, string trimmers, and electric grills.
While an electrical disconnect can be located outdoors, it is not considered an outdoor outlet. The term "outdoor outlet" usually refers specifically to electrical outlets that are designed for outdoor use and are weatherproof to protect against moisture and other environmental factors.
 
W

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Bill Snyder said:
Is an A/C condenser an outdoor outlet?
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Your answer would be correct if you replace the word "outlet" with the words "receptacle outlet" everywhere.

It is incorrect under the NEC definitions; it's a common mistake to think the NEC means "receptacle" when it uses the word "outlet."

I kind of think this thread should be closed given the incessant intransigence.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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