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210.8(F) GFCI Protection

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EeeeVeee

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NJ
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Electrical Contractor
Bill Snyder said:
Wow that is interesting in NFPA 72 the manufacturer's instructions over ride the code almost 100% of the time with few exceptions
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I don’t want to get in the middle of a heated debate, but I have always seen it the way Don is explaining it.

If a manufacturer tells you that their product has to be wired up with 18 gauge zip cord connected to a 30 amp breaker, we can’t do that. Now that is exaggerated for illustrative purposes, but isn’t it the same thing?
 
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MadElec75

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California
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Were do outdoor electric infrared heaters come into play with the GFCI rule? Are they exempt until 2026 NEC as they may be considered HVAC? Electric infrared heaters are mounted at the same height or higher than lighting fixtures which are exempt. Has anyone run into this.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
MadElec75 said:
Were do outdoor electric infrared heaters come into play with the GFCI rule? Are they exempt until 2026 NEC as they may be considered HVAC? Electric infrared heaters are mounted at the same height or higher than lighting fixtures which are exempt. Has anyone run into this.
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They are not HVAC equipment.
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
MadElec75 said:
Were do outdoor electric infrared heaters come into play with the GFCI rule? Are they exempt until 2026 NEC as they may be considered HVAC? Electric infrared heaters are mounted at the same height or higher than lighting fixtures which are exempt. Has anyone run into this.
Click to expand...
If the manufacturer instructions claim they are not compatible with class A protection that should get you a pass for this code cycle "listed equipment" not compatible with class A protection has been passing for me here in Colorado just show the inspector the instructions.
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
EeeeVeee said:
I don’t want to get in the middle of a heated debate, but I have always seen it the way Don is explaining it.

If a manufacturer tells you that their product has to be wired up with 18 gauge zip cord connected to a 30 amp breaker, we can’t do that. Now that is exaggerated for illustrative purposes, but isn’t it the same thing?
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Manufacturers instructions can not create a code violation and over ride the NEC. Now with EVSE the manufacturer's instructions say Class A protection is not required when hardwired due to the fact personnel protection is provided with the equipment article 625 over rides 210.8(F) the manufacturer says the equipment is not connected to an outlet when hardwired and that is gold with my AHJ.
 
mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
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Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
I love the back and forth ... It's like reading a mystery novel.
Who has the strongest argument that will win out ?
Is this entertainment and educational at the same time ?
 
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MadElec75

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California
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Any, thoughts on the rule in general governing electric infrared heaters. These heaters will be mounted at least 8 feet off the ground. I do understand the this rule was put in place for equipment that people could come in contact with not sure if mounted 8 feet up would constitute that. What about considering the heater as a lighting fixture as it basically is a heat lamp (heavy gauge coiled filament).
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
wwhitney said:
They do? Reference?

That would be in error, regardless, as all utilization equipment is connected to the premises wiring system via an outlet, per the NEC definitions. Your protestations to the contrary are also in error.

Cheers, Wayne
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So we should remove the definition of individual branch circuit that doesn't mention connecting to an outlet?
 
Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
mtnelect said:
I love the back and forth ... It's like reading a mystery novel.
Who has the strongest argument that will win out ?
Is this entertainment and educational at the same time ?
Click to expand...
Ryan Jackson said the branch circuit starts at the breaker and ends at the utilization equipment their argument has always been all branch circuits end at an outlet and the utilization equipment connects to the outlet but that causes problems when the utilization equipment is hardwired.
 
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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Bill Snyder said:
So we should remove the definition of individual branch circuit that doesn't mention connecting to an outlet?
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No. Absence of mention is different from mention of absence. No conflict there, we know from the other definitions that an individual branch circuit, like all branch circuits, will end at an outlet. Be that outlet a receptacle, or the point in hard-wired utilization equipment where the premises wiring connects to the utilization equipment wiring.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Bill Snyder

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
wwhitney said:
No. Absence of mention is different from mention of absence. No conflict there, we know from the other definitions that an individual branch circuit, like all branch circuits, will end at an outlet. Be that outlet a receptacle, or the point in hard-wired utilization equipment where the premises wiring connects to the utilization equipment wiring.

Cheers, Wayne
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I agree with Mr. Ryan Jackson that branch circuits start at the OCPD and end at the utilization equipment
 
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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Bill Snyder said:
I agree with Mr. Ryan Jackson that branch circuits start at the OCPD and end at the utilization equipment
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OK, great. That means the utilization equipment is not part of the branch circuit, right? They are different, disjoint.

Then as the electrons move (to use a simplified model) from the grid, through the premises wiring, through the load, and back to the grid, at some point they leave the branch circuit and enter the utilization equipment (or vice versa) That point is the outlet. That's what the definition says.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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