210.8(F) GFCI Protection

[kwired]

I am thinking about the following as PIs for the 2026.

Outlet:
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle(s), fixture whip conductors, or utilization equipment

Lighting Outlet.
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to a lampholder, luminaire, or fixture whip conductors.

Receptacle Outlet.
A point where the branch circuit conductors are connected to a receptacle(s).

Maybe a little redundant? How about something like:

Outlet:
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle(s), fixture whip conductors, a lamp holder, luminaire or utilization equipment.

 

[wwhitney]

I am thinking about the following as PIs for the 2026.

The term "whip" is not used anywhere else in the NEC, so I'm not sure introducing a new term is a good idea. Is the intent of that language only to cover conductors supplied with the utilization equipment, or do you intend to cover some field installed whips?

It would be more compact to use your definition of "outlet" within the second two definitions. I.e.:

Lighting outlet. An outlet for connection to a lampholder, luminaire, or fixture whip conductors.
Receptacle outlet. An outlet at which a receptacle is installed.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Maybe a little redundant? How about something like:

Outlet:
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle(s), fixture whip conductors, a lamp holder, luminaire or utilization equipment.

Because we already have all 3 definitions in the code, and would not expect that the CMP would want to combine them into one rule.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The term "whip" is not used anywhere else in the NEC, so I'm not sure introducing a new term is a good idea. Is the intent of that language only to cover conductors supplied with the utilization equipment, or do you intend to cover some field installed whips?

....

Cheers, Wayne

My concern is covering the connection to a luminaire with a factory installed whip. It would my my opinion, that for a factor installed whip, the outlet point is the connection between the branch circuit conductors and the conductors in the whip. Might be a better way to cover that, but not sure.

Trying to prevent the possibility that seems to permit code "experts" to say equipment can be operated without a connection to an outlet. There is a recognized author and instructor that is teaching what was said in this thread...that is 210.8(F) does not apply to hard wired AC equipment because there is no outlet.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Any electrical equipment that works and is not supplied by batteries is connected to an outlet. If it is not connected to an outlet, there is no possible way to supply power to the equipment.
If CMP 12 wanted to address this, they could put a rule in 625 that says that 210.8(F) does not apply to EVSE, as they can modify the rule in Article 210. They choose not to put such a rule in 625, so 210.8(F) applies to hard wired EVSE equipment installed at an outside location at a dwelling unit.

Go on Google and find a picture of a hardwired outlet they don't have one this interpretation has been fabricated by CMP-2 and lacks technical merit.

 

[Bill Snyder]

I am thinking about the following as PIs for the 2026.

How about a public input to call all appliance wiring compartments appliance outlets?

 

[Bill Snyder]

This is from Link

 

[wwhitney]

Go on Google and find a picture of a hardwired outlet

Here you go, an electric cooktop that comes with a whip from the factory. The outlet is (in) the junction box where the factory wiring connects to the premises wiring.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

My concern is covering the connection to a luminaire with a factory installed whip. It would my my opinion, that for a factor installed whip, the outlet point is the connection between the branch circuit conductors and the conductors in the whip. Might be a better way to cover that, but not sure.

How about:

Outlet:
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle(s) or the terminals or conductors provided with utilization equipment.

Or something like that.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

How about a public input to call all appliance wiring compartments appliance outlets?

you can submit that, I have no interest in that one

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Go on Google and find a picture of a hardwired outlet they don't have one this interpretation has been fabricated by CMP-2 and lacks technical merit.

try reading the definition of outlet and explain how the equipment can work without an outlet.

 

[hbiss]

How about "Outlet: the point where utilization equipment connects to premises wiring". I would think that covers it all.

-Hal

 

[Rjryan]

There is alot of confusion concerning NEC's changes with 210.8(F) and HVAC installations. I understand that the AC disconnect is now considered an outlet and it needs GFCI protection. What I'm hoping someone can clarify is does that mean a GFCI breaker needs to be installed in the AC disconnect feeding the HVAC equipment? - OR- Does it mean the breaker feeding the AC disconnect back at the panel needs to be a GFCI breaker? - OR - Have I misunderstood this altogether?

Thank you,
Fred Kreusch
ABLE Power Products

NEC 210.8(F)
Exception No.2 GFCI protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.

 

[Rjryan]

NEC 210.8(F)
Exception No.2 GFCI protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.

NEC 2023

 

[Bill Snyder]

try reading the definition of outlet and explain how the equipment can work without an outlet.

I read the definition of individual branch circuit and there is no mention of an outlet so that tells me it can be either connected to an outlet or directly terminated to utilization equipment.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Here you go, an electric cooktop that comes with a whip from the factory. The outlet is (in) the junction box where the factory wiring connects to the premises wiring.

Cheers, Wayne


View attachment 2563581

CMP-2 knew you were going to say that so they added 210.8(D) that covers all outlets whether hardwired to outlets or cord and plug connected.

 

[LarryFine]

Don't confuse "outlet" and "receptacle". A receptacle is only one type of outlet.

 

[kwired]

Go on Google and find a picture of a hardwired outlet they don't have one this interpretation has been fabricated by CMP-2 and lacks technical merit.

You use google as a "NEC handbook"?

It can be useful search tool but you still need to take what you find or do not find and interpret what it might mean for yourself.

 

[Bill Snyder]

NEC 210.8(F)
Exception No.2 GFCI protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.

The list got longer with the standards council rejection of the CMP-2 TIAs and added all units with compatibility issues.

 

[Bill Snyder]

You use google as a "NEC handbook"?

It can be useful search tool but you still need to take what you find or do not find and interpret what it might mean for yourself.

I say there is no appliance outlet