220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

[luke warmwater]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

when was the disconnect installed?? before or after the a/c unit. and when was it inspected? before or after the a/c unit was installed.
It seems that 'round here, a term that I hear more and more by inspectors is, "it wasn't there when I did the inspection." what a cop-out!!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Around here im not getting my final untill that AC unit is wired.As to it wasn't that way when i inspected it, yes they do say it , they gotta cover there butt too.Lawyers today go after everyone that had anypart of the cause, that includes GC ,AC ,EC ,homeowner,Inspector ,mfg..
The inspector has a rough time, if there is no violation at the time he sees the job he can't tag it , even if he knows what's likely to happen when he leaves.He sees a workbench in garage that looks just like it was pulled away from the wall under that panel(see the paint marks on wall ) he knows it is going right back in place after he leaves.Just what can he do ?

 

[roger]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Jim, you could blame one of your apprentices.

Roger

 

[hurk27]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Around here we are usually out of the house before the A/C unit is set. and almost every time they will set it directly in front of the disconect. we raised the hight of the disconnect but the old ones with a dead front did not meet the requirments of 110.26 so we would still get red taged. Now this leaves a J-Block on the side of the house with nothing on it as after we move the disconect to comply.
This is one of the reason's we started using these types of disconect's, one of our Inspectors pointed it out that since there is no danger of a shock hazard with the cover door open to remove the pull out or for testing for voltage/current and there is no normal reason to do any other work on one with the power on, it dosen't meet the requirment of 110.26 so he would let pass as long as it is readly accessable. I wished I knew how to get a Interpataion from NFPA to just understand what is meant by some of the wording in 110.26 as it is poorly written, and is very mis-leading as in some of the diffrance in opinion here.
The other reason is there is other inspectors that won't let it pass. They say any disconect has to meet 110.26 but when I ask about the disconect for a disposal (single receptacle) they seem to not want to go there. And I would like to know which one is right. As I have always been tought that it is the "live exposed parts" that the intent is written about in 110.26.
I'm not saying it is right I just want to understand what the CMP meant. Without the understanding of a code section we are subject to any interpataion that comes along.

[ December 18, 2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[ryan_618]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
It seems that 'round here, a term that I hear more and more by inspectors is, "it wasn't there when I did the inspection." what a cop-out!! [/QB]

So, should the inspector require that a piece of equipment not required by code (A/C unit) be installed before the inspection? Please back up your response with a legal justification that I could tell the judge and jury.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Originally posted by ryan_618:

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
It seems that 'round here, a term that I hear more and more by inspectors is, "it wasn't there when I did the inspection." what a cop-out!!

So, should the inspector require that a piece of equipment not required by code (A/C unit) be installed before the inspection?

No. That was jimwalker a few posts up that said he couldn't get a final until the a/c unit was set.

Please back up your response with a legal justification that I could tell the judge and jury.

Ryan, c'mon now, I'm not giving legal advice for you to use as an expert witness. That's why you get the Big $$$
Really, you missed my point. It seems that anytime I run accross a violation of someone else's work, and I call the inspector on it, his reply is 'it wasn't like that when I did the inspection'. Even if it was, and he is lying through his teeth to cover his *** . I think that sucks and it's a cop-out and there is noway to even prove him wrong.
Like the beginning of the week, got called about a service that another company did. The bond wire was never brought into the panel. It was coiled up above the panel. Not even an empty hole or K.O. where it could have ben removed from. So, I called the inspector. "it wasn't like that when I inspected it." B.S.! Like someone pulled it out and coiled it up after the inspection.
I've got numerous of those type of scenario.
Todd [/QB]

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Hey, is *** a curse?? In all of my years of living, I've never known *** to be a curse, but it seems as if the spell checker on this site sees it as one. I hear it on the radio, and on TV. Growing up, I was always allowed to say it. The 'F' word was a completly different thing.
Well, my appologies to anyone that is offended by the word.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Luke sounds like you don't care for inspectors.They are trying to do a job and without them we would have a real mess and low wages.Most are friendly and if you show them some respect you will find they return it.Yes im upset if they tag my job but if i violate a code i learn from it and never let it happen again.If it's minor stuff and your there they might take your word that it will be fixed right away.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Thanks for the explanation Todd. I have a lot of respect for you and did not mean anything bad by my comments. Perhaps I should have directed the post in a diferent direction.

I understand your position, but you've got to understand mine as well. You may be right about the inspector covering his a$$ets, but I think we need to walk a fine line about what we require and what we don't.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Because your not required to have AC does not mean that it doesn't need inspected.Every thing electrical that will be installed in a premise is subject to NEC.How can you get a final electric without the AC being finished? That would leed to things like disconnect not having work clearance.Down here they might let you terminate up to 2 items in box's that are on special order, like a dishwasher,or hood fan , but not an AC UNIT.light fixtures can be blanked off because they are outlets ,with or without fixtures.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Waht about future provisions, say for a hut tub? Is it illegal to run a 6-3 to a disconnect and terminate only the line side?

Again, please tell me what gives me the legal right to require something that isn't a requirement.

The installation of an A/C is not work exempt from permit. When the A/C is installed, a permit should be issued and the installation inspected.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

ryan i see your point but when you know for a fact that the AC is going to be there in a week or 2 can you turn your back to it.
Let's look at it this way.
The permit was issued to wire the house along with the AC .
The AC is not going to be installed this year.
You inspect the house and pass the electric.Do you at this time cancell the permit to wire the AC? The AC will get installed sometime after your gone, now just who will inspect the electric to the AC .Probably no one.Is this a good idea ? How will the AC inspector know this unit wasn't inspected yet.Since this wasn't a seperate permit it may fall between the cracks.I could see you giving a partial inspection but not a final.

 

[danny pritchard]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

For me it is ironic that this topic came up today.I inspected a new condo townhome for the potential buyer today.The condensing unit was in the rear.It was located between a screen porch and a vinyl type privacy wall.The The distance on either side of this unit to the walls/screen was approximately 1'.The disconnect was located on a wall behind the unit as was a recptacle.I had to stretch across the top of the unit and was just barely able to open the disconnect box cover.I could not reach the wall outlet without climbing over the unit.This was typical of all the units in this complex that I could see.This is a national builder and the AHJ has approved this setup.

 

[eprice]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

When this thread began, I was of the opinion that a simple disconnect, without a fuse or breaker need not fall under the requirements of 110.26(A). Since then I have seen some very persuasive arguments as to why all of these disconnects should be required to meed 110.26(A).

Now, let me turn the question around and ask for some persuasive arguments as to why I shouldn't be requiring 110.26(A) working space in front of wall light switches. (Other than the fact that all of the electricians around here would think I have gone crazy). It seems to me that the same need exists to test while energized as for the unfused A/C disconnect.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

There is not near the danger inside playing with 120 as outside with 240 on wet grass.
Besides i kinda like a 120 tingle once in a while.We hired a man once (journeyman)his method of fixing any mis wired or problem circuits was turn the breakers off.For a hot check he used a hot stick.Told me he was afraid to do it live.He didn't stay very long.
All we are saying is something like an AC disconnect needs and deserves some work space.If needed you can usually move furniture out of the way and get your 30 inches.Lets see you move the AC or fence.

 

[hurk27]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Jim This would be true for a Grounded "B" Delta. But a 3-wire service on a house will only have 120 volts to that "wet grass".
And as I said in my last post the pullout disconnect that I'm talking about has no exposed live parts where you could even get a shock from other wise UL would have required the manufacture to install a dead front on them. They are listed by UL to be used without any dead front. as they are safe from any shock hazard, even when you are using your wiggy to do so (unless the leads on your wiggy are bare, which would not keep you from getting a shock even with the 30" space)
If you look at the disconnect link I posted in my last post you will see what I'm talking about.
As far as doing any kind of examination, adjustment, servicing on them. I can't believe checking for voltage is what would require the 30" of space, as there are many other devices in a house that we test for voltage on that the NEC does not require any space for. The only thing that could be done with one is ether replacing it or removing the wires. Ether would require you to turn off the power to the disconnect, This means that they would not likely require to be worked on while energized! (the main requirement in 110.26 for the work space) Now do we need space by these? Yes as they need to be readily assessable. I myself do not like to see them buried behind the condenser, this is why we started to mount them higher on the wall. But I can't see a reason to red tag one if the HVAC man comes along and puts the condenser under it. when we had the disconnect there first and had it planed to be there by having a J-Block on the wall for the disconnect with the romex sticking out of it. I'm still not convinced that 110.26 is talking about this kind of disconect. the ones that i think there talking about is the ones that have a dead front that has to be removed before you can test for voltage or do any service on. and by removing the dead front you will expose the live terminals inside.

 

[pierre]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Wayne
You have a compelling argument, but from what I am reading it seems more on the emotional side.
As far as switches and receptacles requiring the work clearance, think about the average device, they have the space. Think about the times that one comes across a device where there is not the required space - a lot of #$%^& &*^%% going on and a longer work process, usually accompinanied by shorting out something in the process.
I also realize that you work on a tremendous amount of houses so you are sometimes at the mercy of other trades who have no clue or don't care. but the facts are this is a piece of equipment that requires the working clearances of 110.26

Pierre

[ December 20, 2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[jason123]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Originally posted by eprice:
Now, let me turn the question around and ask for some persuasive arguments as to why I shouldn't be requiring 110.26(A) working space in front of wall light switches. (Other than the fact that all of the electricians around here would think I have gone crazy). It seems to me that the same need exists to test while energized as for the unfused A/C disconnect. [/QB]

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Ok my 2 cents....How would an inspector know the proper max breaker size for the A/C if it wasn`t there on site installed ??? Here if the mechanical contractor doesn`t mark his A/H/U with the heat strip installed we get tagged.Our guys open the units,match heat strip to breaker size but if the a/c installer doesn`t go to his truck and get a sharpie to check the proper box.....RED TAG......So our guys mark them.

 

[eprice]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Ok, regarding the distinction between workspace rquirements in front of the unfused A/C disconnect vs. a light switch, the following have been mentioned: 240 V vs. 120 V, outside vs. inside, usually something can be moved to allow space to work on the switch. These are all valid points, but none of them are mentioned in 110.26(A). In fact, use of the space in front of a panel for storage (which could be moved) is prohibited. I'm not trying to argue against the workspace in front of the A/C disconnect, in fact I'm pretty much convinced it should be there. It's just that, when I as an inspector, tell the electrician and the A/C guy that one of them is going to have to move something, a lot of discussion usually ensues. I want to have some criteria to reference, some response to make to their arguments, that is not going to sound arbitrary.