220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

[hurk27]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

What if some one used a double pole 30 amp rated switch? It is allowed as a disconnect isn't it?
Would it fall under 110.26?
Just a thought. I know the code does not spell it out. that a switch that has no exposed energized parts would not need the space. But as 110.26 is written it does allow for question's as to what the CPM's were wanting. As they use the term "exposed live parts" a few times in this article and even in the 3 condition's that we are suppose to use to know what the size of the space is to be. And if the equipment does not have any exposed live parts how can you use the condition's.
I'm no English master but to me the intent of 110.26 is to prevent a shock hazard when someone has to open a box that has live parts in it to give adequate room to preform service with out the danger of accidentally touching something live or causing a short circuit that would cause burns. I know the hassle of working on equipment that is put in tight spaces. but if this equipment is not required to be worked on while energized (as what the manufacture requires) then it is nothing but an inconvenience. look at the auto how many times we cursed they way they make it hard to change parts on them. the "71" pinto and maverick both had to lift the engine half out of the car to change the starter. But the manufacture still makes them hard to work on.
I have always been taught that the NEC is for safety not for something that might be hard to work on. I have to go with the interpitation that this disconect does fall under 110.26 until they change the NEC wording of 110.26, But I still dont think all disconects meet the intent of the wording, or we would be requiring this space around all disconects, Receptacles, switch's, Etc...

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

30 amp switch is fine and where space is a problem i have used them.We sometimes see air handlers built into very small closets,and there is no place we could mount a 60 amp disc. and keep work space.Sometimes we can barley have room to open the disc. door.So maybe this too should be getting red taged.Never had a tag on this issue unless the door after the air handler was installed couldn't be opened.

 

[hurk27]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

This is exactly what I'm talking about. even this switch could fall under the requirements of 110.26 as if you needed to check it for voltage you would have to remove the cover which in turn would expose live terminals. The disconnect I'm talking about would be safer as you can check for voltage without any exposed terminals, there are just two little holes to put your probes through. Of course that is if checking for voltage is considered working on the switch.

 

[websparky]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Here is a quote from an artcle by Mike Holt.

Electrical Construction & Maintenance, Feb 1, 2002

Mike Holt

The phrase ?while energized? is the root of many debates. Since electric power to almost all equipment can be turned off, one could argue that workspace is never required, but in today?s litigious environment that wouldn?t be a wise move.

 

[rb]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Ultimately the authority having jurisdiction is going to have to make the call on what type of equipment requires examination, adjustment, or maintenance while energized. Many authorities require transformers to comply with 110.26(a)others do not. I have no problem with the wording of 110.26. I do wish that each of the code panels that govern Chapters 4 and 6 would specifically state in their respective articles which equipment required the working space of 110.26. For example see 422.66, or 620.5.

 

[jason123]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

The working space requirements of 110.26(A)(1),(2), and (3)apply to equipment that is "likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized". A common kind of examination is checking for the presence of voltage using a portable voltmeter. If it turns out that there is voltage, then this would constitute an "examination while energized". However, this does not mean that the working spaces of 110.26(A)(1),(2), and (3) are required for every piece of equipment where we could conceivably check for voltage. The code only requires specific working space in cases where it is likely that checking for voltage (or any other type of examination, adjustment, etc.) would be required.

In other words, the relevant question is not "what if you need to check for voltage at that disconnect, wall switch, outlet, etc?", but "is it likely that anyone will ever need to check for voltage at that disconnect, wall switch, outlet, etc?" If the answer is no, then 110.26(A) does not apply. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, there will never be such a need because in the vast majority of cases equipment works the way it is supposed to. For any given disconnect, wall switch, outlet, etc., it is simply not likely to require any form of examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.

If an inspector wants to require working space for a particular piece of equipment, then he must first demonstrate that the equipment in question is likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized. This is an empirical claim that he must establish by argumentation and supporting evidence. If he cannot do this, and cannot overcome any objections, then he has no basis for requiring the working space of 110.26(A)(1),(2), and (3).

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Thanks for the explanation Todd. I have a lot of respect for you and did not mean anything bad by my comments.
And I, you. I took no Bad meaning. Perhaps I should have directed the post in a diferent direction.
Nah.

I understand your position, but you've got to understand mine as well.
I do.
You may be right about the inspector covering his a$$ets, but I think we need to walk a fine line about what we require and what we don't.
I agree.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Luke sounds like you don't care for inspectors.
I don't dis-like inspectors. That was not my intent.
They are trying to do a job and without them we would have a real mess and low wages.
I think there are other factors that would contribute to low wages.
Most are friendly and if you show them some respect you will find they return it.
I show all of my inspectors respect, and vice-versa.
Yes im upset if they tag my job but if i violate a code i learn from it and never let it happen again.
I'm not talking about my job being tagged-it doesn't happen. I'm talking about an inspector who PASSES someone else's work where there are blatent violations and when called on it, denies that the work was like that at the time of inspection!
If it's minor stuff and your there they might take your word that it will be fixed right away.
Any inspector can find a violation, no matter how small, with anyone's work. And I'll agree that if it's a minor violation, the electrician on site should be given a chance to fix it promptly without being given a violation.
But I think the same should apply to an inspector. He should at least admit the uh-hem 'oversite'.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Sorry luke i mis understood
No favortism should happen and yes they dont see everything.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

Jim Pasco had a new inspector start about a year ago or so.Shiney new code book all labeled for reference.I don`t have a problem with inspectors tagging violations on a job,hey that`s what they are there for.But this guy went to the extreme.From tagging finals for more than 1/4 in of exposed dry wall around the front of a panel,to
tagging phone lines that were 1 1/16 in from the edge of a stud.Then one day I got a call from the C.M. of a subdivision,A/C man was doing a start up on a house and said there was no voltage to the A/C compressor.Well that was because the compressor was never hooked up.It had been installed the previous day and the Pull Out still had all KO`s in it.I was livid ,how did this stickler for code release a final without this???
The next time he did an inspection he told me that as an inspector he was only doing his job enforcing the nec and that he didn`t make mistakes as far as that went.Well digital cameras showed him that we are all human and make mistakes
I didn`t push the issue past showing him the pic in my camera.I simply said we all make mistakes and pressed the delete button and smiled.After that things went allot smoother,instead of a $$$ tag he would write a correction notice or call me to let me know what needed done.Without inspectors I could imagine what some people would do in the field But they do need to be realistic

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 220 HVAC disconnect box clearance

The new guys always got to try to prove something to make them self look good.Given the amount of time they have to inspect a house it would be hard to inspect everything.But we both know he was to ck that AC for max breaker ,so how did he miss that.The real fun inspectors are in St LEO,Lake jovita.They will spend 3 hours inspecting.Hillsbourough had a inspector demanding 4 wires on a cook top (2 hots ,neutral, ground) problem was this cook top didn't use a neutral.To shut him up we added a white wire that was nutted off in the cook top.Had one from Pasco that inspected a large screen porch add on 3 fans 2 outlets ,floods,switches ,for the final he got within 50 feet of the porch ,seen me and asked what i did , went to permit and signed off

[ December 24, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]