240v debate....

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Besoeker said:
I thought I had been clear and consistent about this.
V1-N and V2-N as mutually displaced by 180deg. See post #22.
OK, to line up wit other definitions I have later referred to them as Van and Vbn. They are also mutually displaced by 180deg.
That one simple fact.
That's all.
What's to discuss further?
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How about why Rick can not or will not answer your questions?

Seems he painted himself into a corner and will not admit it.
 
Besoeker said:
I thought I had been clear and consistent about this.
V1-N and V2-N as mutually displaced by 180deg. See post #22.
OK, to line up with other definitions I have later referred to them as Van and Vbn. They are also mutually displaced by 180deg.
That one simple fact.
That's all.
What's to discuss further?
Click to expand...


You, Mivey, and David have been very clear and consistent. I have certainly learned a lot.
 
jumper said:
How about why Rick can not or will not answer your questions?

Seems he painted himself into a corner and will not admit it.
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Because it was a stupid question the first time he asked it, and it's still a stupid question after the tenth time he asked it. The reference doesn't change the circuit, so it neither proves nor disproves anything.
 
Rick Christopherson said:
Because it was a stupid question the first time he asked it, and it's still a stupid question after the tenth time he asked it. The reference doesn't change the circuit, so it neither proves nor disproves anything.
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Lame answer.

If it is such a 'stupid question' it seems a guy like you could come up with a real answer.
 
iwire said:
Lame answer.

If it is such a 'stupid question' it seems a guy like you could come up with a real answer.
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The answer is the same regardless what your reference point is. I politely ignored it the dozen or so times it was asked, but when you call me out on it by name, I'll say it like I see it. It is a stupid question that doesn't prove or disprove a point.
 
Rick Christopherson said:
The answer is the same regardless what your reference point is. I politely ignored it the dozen or so times it was asked, but when you call me out on it by name, I'll say it like I see it. It is a stupid question that doesn't prove or disprove a point.
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So basically you have decided it is stupid and you will not answer it.

Well from a layman's POV it sounds more like you can't answer it so you choose to dismiss it.

You sure are not helping your case.
 
iwire said:
So basically you have decided it is stupid and you will not answer it.

Well from a layman's POV it sounds more like you can't answer it so you choose to dismiss it.

You sure are not helping your case.
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If I cared about what a layman thought, I would have picked up the phone and called my 12 year old son. :lol:
 
jim dungar said:
Physics gives us the starting points, how we 'view' them is what is arbitrary.
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From your post #541:
Lets get back to a center tapped transformer winding on a single core. This is the probably the most common source found in the US.
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To some extent, I have a foot on each side of the pond. So I am reasonably familiar with how householders get their supplies.
The 120-0-120 is two hots and one common neutral with Van and Vbn both 180V and mutually displaced by 120degE.
I don't see how anyone can reasonably dispute that fact.

Yes, you could take any one of the three terminals as a common reference point, say Vb. Then you would have Vbn in phase with Vba. But different magnitudes.
0-120-240V
 
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hurk27 said:
If you agree with what this site had to say then you would also agree with this point they made almost at the bottom of that page I posted:
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But Wayne if you look at the math presented, it is shown as displaced by 180 degrees.

The author also says this;

If we mark the two sources' common connection point (the neutral wire) with the same polarity mark (-), we must express their relative phase shifts as being 180o apart. Otherwise, we'd be denoting two voltage sources in direct opposition with each other, which would give 0 volts between the two ?hot? conductors.
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I am not sure I like the bold part. Displaced is a better term to me.
 
Besoeker said:
Yes, you could take any one of the three terminals as a common reference point, say Vb. Then you would have Vbn in phase with Vba. But different magnitudes.
0-120-240V
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Umm, here's a twist for you. Why do you think you need a common reference point in the first place? You're thinking that way only because that is how your scope is set up. Not everyone looks at a circuit as though there is a common reference point. Voltages are determined between nodes regardless of a common point.
 
Besoeker said:
From your post #541:

To some extent, I have a foot on each side of the pond. So I am reasonably familiar with how householders get their supplies.
The 120-0-120 is two hots and one common neutral with Van and Vbn both 180V and mutually displaced by 120degE.
I don't see how anyone can reasonably dispute that fact.

Yes, you could take any one of the three terminals as a common reference point, say Vb. Then you would have Vbn in phase with Vba. But different magnitudes.
0-120-240V
Click to expand...
Should have read:
The 120-0-120 is two hots and one common neutral with Van and Vbn both 120V and mutually displaced by 180degE.
 
Besoeker said:
Not at all. the supply Jim D refers to has two hots and a common neutral.
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Then why did you say in the quote below that you could choose some other common reference point? You have a hang-up on using some sort of common reference point. It is not only not necessary, but if chosen, tends to complicate KVL.

Besoeker said:
Yes, you could take any one of the three terminals as a common reference point, say Vb. Then you would have Vbn in phase with Vba. But different magnitudes.
0-120-240V
Click to expand...
 
Rick Christopherson said:
Then why did you say in the quote below that you could choose some other common reference point? You have a hang-up on using some sort of common reference point. It is not only not necessary, but if chosen, tends to complicate KVL.
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Come, now. You know that it isn't a matter of comparing independent circuits. It's ONE single centre-tapped winding.
 
Rick Christopherson said:
If I cared about what a layman thought, I would have picked up the phone and called my 12 year old son. :lol:
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Then how about you give your expert opinion on exactly why the two pulses in the SCR circuit I posted have to be 180 deg apart?
And why the circuits I have posted are, as you have claimed, wrong?
And why the arrangement in the pic below can't possibly work....

10kArect.jpg


Or this....

LHSstacklimb.jpg


Or this circuit arrangement....

Anodisingrectifier01.jpg


Yet they do.

I have asked a few times for you to present a correct circuit arrangement to show where you think I have been in error.
I think now, I'm at a point where Matthew 7:6 applies.
I have given you good information diagrams, and photographs from real and practical applications that I have designed, supervised the build, and commissioned.
What do I get in return?
Denigration, derision, and disparaging remarks about what I have posted, my grasp of the English language and my status as an engineer.
A simple apology might be in order. Although neither required nor expected.
 
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jumper said:
This is a real question. I am confused by this statement.

How can I measure a voltage without a reference point?
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I didn't say without a reference point. I said without a common reference point. Standard KVL sums the voltages around a loop from node-to-node. When you perform KVL based on a common reference point, then you should be referencing all of your nodes back to that common reference point for their voltage. This gets very complicated and tedious. It still works and is still true, but the equations get needlessly complicated.
 
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