3 phase 120/208

[MAC702]

Okay, so NEMA, ANSI, and NFPA all agree but are incorrect in your opinion......

Of course nominal and actual are rarely, if ever, the same. Nominal is the “ ideal steady” state voltage while actual is the “real ever changing” state.

Let me try it again. CONTEXT is everything.

230V is a worldwide nominal for a certain range of equipment voltage. Actuals vary from a targeted 220 in some countries, 230 in others, and 240 in still others like here.

240V is the American nominal, as mentioned above. It will vary very slightly. Some services will have 239. Some will have 242. Etc.

You are quoting "National" and "American" sources for correcting me on my usage of a worldwide term in the context of a worldwide equipment label.

 

[jumper]

Let me try it again. CONTEXT is everything.

230V is a worldwide nominal for a certain range of equipment voltage. Actuals vary from a targeted 220 in some countries, 230 in others, and 240 in still others like here.

240V is the American nominal, as mentioned above. It will vary very slightly. Some services will have 239. Some will have 242. Etc.

You are quoting "National" and "American" sources for correcting me on my usage of a worldwide term in the context of a worldwide equipment label.

Where in the OP does it state anything about foreign voltages?

He began with 230/460V motors. Rather an American standard, no?

A more worldwide nominal value would have been 215/400 or 230/415 IIRC.

Note that those are wyes, whereas we would get our nominal 240V 3P more commonly off a delta, but a 240Y/139V is possible.

IMO trying to jam these two systems together and say it is all a “nominal worldwide 230V” is basically wrong.

 

[JFletcher]

What if compressor or machine reads 230/460v on you have 480v. Would that be a problem?

Nope. Only thing you have to do is rewire the motors for 460V (480V service) if they are wired for 230V (240V service).

If there are control transformers on the equipment, they would need to be rewired for 480V. Most times this is a matter of a selector switch, changing a jumper, or using a different tap.

 

[GoldDigger]

OK. Once more into the terminology breach:

For a US 240V system 240 is the nominal *system* voltage.
Recognizing that the delivered voltage at the load will often be lower, the NEMA *motor nameplate* nominal voltage is 230.
They are designed to work together, with a 10% tolerance for local variation.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[jumper]

OK. Once more into the terminology breach:

For a US 240V system 240 is the nominal *system* voltage.
Recognizing that the delivered voltage at the load will often be lower, the NEMA *motor nameplate* nominal voltage is 230.
They are designed to work together, with a 10% tolerance for local variation.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I will easily accept that wording.

What I had issue then with was mixing our 230V NEMA nominal motor nameplate voltage and foreign 215-240V nominal system voltages as if they were the same.

 

[electrofelon]

Do you have a lot of 120V loads? Is there a reason you aren't considering the upgrade to be to a 120/240V Delta 3-phase service instead? The 3-phase machines will love it with no issues. There is just less panel balancing if you have a lot of 120V loads because one leg can't be used for them.

:thumbsup: I love the 120/240 delta, sounds like just the ticket for this type of use. Unfortunately, many utilities will not serve it anymore.

 

[MAC702]

I will easily accept that wording.

What I had issue then with was mixing our 230V NEMA nominal motor nameplate voltage and foreign 215-240V nominal system voltages as if they were the same.

A phrase with numbers I didn't use, but no wonder you had a problem with it. I would, too.

American labeling is often to the worldwide nominal. :thumbsup:

Yes, American supplied voltage is 240 V nominal. :thumbsup: Works with 230V wordwide nominal equipment, as stated on even American nameplates.

How did that get so incensed?

"Nominal" just means that's what it's named, something that varies by context.

I used it correctly. You used it correctly. :bye:

 

[ActionDave]

:thumbsup: I love the 120/240 delta, sounds like just the ticket for this type of use. Unfortunately, many utilities will not serve it anymore.

I agree this sounds like what a 240V delta service was made for.

 

[jumper]

:thumbsup: I love the 120/240 delta, sounds like just the ticket for this type of use. Unfortunately, many utilities will not serve it anymore.

I agree this sounds like what a 240V delta service was made for.

POCOs in VA and MD where I have worked still offer them if needed.

 

[oldsparky52]

I agree this sounds like what a 240V delta service was made for.

Count me in this camp also.

 

[oldsparky52]

It only has exisitng lighting. I am taking a stab at the calculations

Existing The warehouse is basically empty.
22-1000w fixtures lighting EXISITNG
20-120v recptacles ( new ) Non cont ADD
4- welding 12.3kw each 230v 33a 3p Non cont ADD
air compressor 230v 25a 3p motor load ADD
MORE TO BE ADDED

calculation (Let Me know What I am doing wrong Please )

general lighitng 22,000va
receptacles 20x180va = 3600va
compressor motor 25ax 230v x 1.73 = 9,930VA
Welders 12.3 VA x4 = 49200VA
Total VA = 84730/240x1.73= 204A

I believe you are supposed to use the HP and 430.x motor tables and not the amperage ratings, I think you are allowed a % multiplier for the welders to reduce the load if you need it (630), depending on what's being done with the receptacles you might want to add some load, but the 180va is all that is required.

W/out the stuff "to come", the exercise seems ... pointless.

When will you have a complete list of loads?

 

[jumper]

I believe you are supposed to use the HP and 430.x motor tables and not the amperage ratings, I think you are allowed a % multiplier for the welders to reduce the load if you need it (630), depending on what's being done with the receptacles you might want to add some load, but the 180va is all that is required.

W/out the stuff "to come", the exercise seems ... pointless.

When will you have a complete list of loads?

One problem with compressors often noted on this forum is that the HP rating stated on the units seem to be misleading in many cases.

 

[ggunn]

460 is a nominal voltage for our 480 actual.
230 is a nominal voltage for our 240 actual.
200 is a nominal voltage for our 208 actual.

So 230/460 is the same thing as 240/480.

It is still possible that you can use some or all of your "230" nominal equipment on a 208 service, but you should still find out if you really need to find out.

240/480V? Is that a high leg three phase like 3P 120/240V? I've never seen 1P 240/480V.

 

[MBLES]

:thumbsup: I love the 120/240 delta, sounds like just the ticket for this type of use. Unfortunately, many utilities will not serve it anymore.

Sometimes actually the 120240 delta is what the POCO will offer wihout any extra construction cost. Thats all they have available sometimes with out bring in another primary for 120208 3p/4 wire at least in our area. There are some older parts of town that use 480v corner delta. I hate working that side of town.

 

[jumper]

Sometimes actually the 120240 delta is what the POCO will offer wihout any extra construction cost. Thats all they have available sometimes with out bring in another primary for 120208 3p/4 wire at least in our area. There are some older parts of town that use 480v corner delta. I hate working that side of town.

Not sure I understand.

An open High leg Delta would still need three primary conductors but only two trannies, no?

 

[retirede]

One problem with compressors often noted on this forum is that the HP rating stated on the units seem to be misleading in many cases.

If it’s an industrial unit 10HP or greater, the HP is likely legit. But be aware that under full load, it likely loads the motor well into the service factor.

 

[jumper]

If it’s an industrial unit 10HP or greater, the HP is likely legit. But be aware that under full load, it likely loads the motor well into the service factor.

Yeah, running and peak. What irritates is that many companies splash a peak number on the unit and I find it misleading.

Similar to portable genies. One may see “6500W” in real big letters on the side, but that may be start/peak power. Running may be be 5000W, but printed much smaller.

 

[retirede]

Yeah, running and peak. What irritates is that many companies splash a peak number on the unit and I find it misleading.

Similar to portable genies. One may see “6500W” in real big letters on the side, but that may be start/peak power. Running may be be 5000W, but printed much smaller.

Many “5HP” units were sold that had a 5-15 plug. They put out less air than a legit 1HP unit.
I asked our GE motor rep about this once. He said they used no load speed and locked rotor torque to calculate this mysterious “horsepower”.

 

[jumper]

I asked our GE motor rep about this once. He said they used no load speed and locked rotor torque to calculate this mysterious “horsepower”.

This mysterious horsepower formula the rep told you sounds like male bovine excrement to me.

Blatant misrepresentation to the average person IMO.

GE should be ashamed for allowing such.

 

[retirede]

This mysterious horsepower formula the rep told you sounds like male bovine excrement to me.

Blatant misrepresentation to the average person IMO.

GE should be ashamed for allowing such.

Yep on all counts.