3-way switch loops

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by physis:
I used to not like plastic but I've changed my mind over the years. What's the problem with it?

I was kidding. It seemed like a mild slam on us housemonkeys. Probably deserved, since I buzz around like a knat until this kind of stuff gets resolved...

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

"No allowance shall be required for a cable connector with its clamping mechanism outside the box."

George this is your strongest point yet and if I was going to change my mind it would be now.

I am not changing my mind.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by georgestolz:
It seemed like a mild slam on us housemonkeys.

No not a slam on you guys, a slam on plastic parts.

My favorite place for plastic is buried under ground.

If they send me to an NM / wood job I would probably use plastic boxes.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

I am not changing my mind.

O........kay.

Despite there being no language to support a "flush" clamp as being "outside the box", you're going to maintain that position?

Edit for context

[ July 10, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Bob
When doing the box fill calculations on a job done with EMT do you count the connector? The same is true with the 3/8 and ? inch NM connectors.

I agree that with the plastic boxes where the clamp is molded with the box we do not count the clamp. We do not count the metal NM clamp either due to the fact the clamp is on the outside.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Sorry I missed the other thread. Which one was it, out of curiosity (not with the intent of reviving it. . .honest.)

Your statement to Bob Badger
Sorry I missed the other thread. Which one was it, out of curiosity (not with the intent of reviving it. . .honest.)

I made this statement in this thread that starts a lengthy debate that got heated.

This link is where it all starts.

After several pages with no one changing their minds it was locked. Should you decide to read through it and have an opinion I would appreciate it if you would send me a private message.

I think this is the one that Bob is referring too.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

George I have stated my position a 1/2 dozen times here.

I am new to this electrical thing, maybe you can teach me something.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by jwelectric:

I think this is the one that Bob is referring too.

{Read as: there have been several such arguments in the past couple months.)

Mike, you lurker you.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by jwelectric:
After several pages with no one changing their minds it was locked. Should you decide to read through it and have an opinion I would appreciate it if you would send me a private message.

It is and Al is already holed up in a cabin reading it.

 

[physis]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Bob, I have to say I'm taken aback by your position on that particular NM connector.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Bob, can you prove it?

I feel I have effectively proven my case.

1. A clamp is required.
2. If the clamping doesn't take place outside the box, it's required to be accounted for in the box fill.

Do you have any other evidence?

I'm solely confused because you haven't presented evidence to the contrary, yet maintain your position on what appears to be a gut feeling.

 

[peter d]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by iwire:
With MC and metal studs the blue plastic clashes with the shiny metal. :roll:

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
After several pages with no one changing their minds it was locked. Should you decide to read through it and have an opinion I would appreciate it if you would send me a private message.

It is and Al is already holed up in a cabin reading it.

Thank you Bob, I am laugh ing so hard my side hurts,

 

[physis]

Re: 3-way switch loops

We need Ryan and Larry on this then cause I can't even imagine the anti-George position on these connectors.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by georgestolz:
1. A clamp is required.

Without a doubt.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
2. If the clamping doesn't take place outside the box, it's required to be accounted for in the box fill.

That is your opinion, not a fact.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Do you have any other evidence?

No.

What do you want?

I told you my opinion and my position, you have laid out your position.

Thats it, nothing left to be said.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Thank you Bob, I am laugh ing so hard my side hurts,

No problem but I do not think we will hear back from Al for a few days.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by peter d:
The key word is internal.

Peter, do you pry those factory supplied clamps out of the box when you use them?

Are they listed for use that way?

I always stabbed the cables into the box, pushing the clamp along with it, comprising a (shoddy, couldn't resist) internal cable clamping means.

 

[peter d]

Re: 3-way switch loops

George, if you go back and read the thread over, you will see that I was in agreement with you.

Yes, I do push the cable in and it bends the clamp down into the box, thereby taking up space. However, until the code changes the wording from "internal" to "internal and intergral" I don't think we need to count integral box clamps in calculations.

As for the Allied "K clamps" that Al posted, I certainly think those get counted.

Funny thing is, this very issue confused the heck out of me recently. I had a situation where I had a Carlon ceiling box, 20 CI capacity, for a basement porcelain. I needed to add a 14/2 to the box to get power for something. If I counted the clamp, I was over 20. If I didn't, I was under. I went ahead and added the cable.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by georgestolz:
[qb]2. If the clamping doesn't take place outside the box, it's required to be accounted for in the box fill.

That is your opinion, not a fact.

Fact:

(2) Clamp Fill. Where one or more internal cable clamps, whether factory or field supplied, are present in the box, a single volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made based on the largest conductor present in the box. No allowance shall be required for a cable connector with its clamping mechanism outside the box.

You can't call the flap at the back of the box anything but a "cable clamp", because to do otherwise would violate 314.17. To snap the flap out of the box (as I unwittingly did the first time I used them) violates 314.17.

If the flap is a clamp, and exists inside the box, it is an (internal) (factory supplied) (cable clamp). The main body of the section quoted above describes it.

The last sentence reiterates it another way.

Bob wrote awhile back:
If the clamps are internal I do count them, when they are external or flush with the enclosure I do not count'em.

Once the clamps are used, they are no longer flush with the box. They will be either inside or outside. As far as I know, they're supposed to be inside, I could be mistaken.

I hope others will chime in with their thoughts, I'll hopefully shut up for a while.

 

[curt swartz]

Re: 3-way switch loops

George, if you look at the volume of any metal box without clamps then look at the same box that includes clamps they will be marked the same. By adding the clamp the usable volume of the box is reduced. The same applies to Allied and other nonmetallic boxes that use separate internal clamps. The volume marked is of the box before the clamps are installed. Most PVC boxes have molded clamps so the marked volume of the box does not need to be reduced since the clamps do not take up space in the b