314.27

[Little Bill]

To rephrase what I posted earlier:

If you wire only one box in each room required for a smoke detector, and then hang a fan there, you have removed the possibility of interconnection between smokes.

Thus, it would be non-compliant to install a fan or anything other than a smoke detector on that box. The inspector is insisting that you allow for an illegal installation.

I used to put red boxes up for smokes before the supply chain dried up. Now I spray paint them red. This helps the inspector see that is the required smoke for the room on rough inspection. It's not required, but helps. Also helps me if there is another round box for a light near where the smoke goes. I can quickly see which is light and which is a smoke. This happens alot in hallways where a normal light is going and a smoke is required.

 

[Rick 0920]

I used to put red boxes up for smokes before the supply chain dried up. Now I spray paint them red. This helps the inspector see that is the required smoke for the room on rough inspection. It's not required, but helps. Also helps me if there is another round box for a light near where the smoke goes. I can quickly see which is light and which is a smoke. This happens alot in hallways where a normal light is going and a smoke is required.

He is not saying that. He is saying that a homeowner could take the smoke down, wire a fan, if the box was in a location deemed acceptable for a fan by the inspector. I think it needs to be written better. The Code is making rules to protect the Darwin's of the world sir!

 

[Rick 0920]

The problem is that I never went thru the box but used 3" decking screws just outside the box so the board behind the box is supporting the fan. I believe what #2 is concerning is fans, like the old Hunter fans, that used a lag hook into wood thru the center of the box to support the fan. Obviously there are some fans that cannot be supported by a box. I am exaggerating but there are heavy fans like the original Hunter

View attachment 2572189

So if we attach the box to the structure, we don't have to use fan boxes anymore????

 

[LarryFine]

So if we attach the box to the structure, we don't have to use fan boxes anymore????

No, it's if you independently attach the fan to the structure.

 

[Little Bill]

I used to put red boxes up for smokes before the supply chain dried up. Now I spray paint them red. This helps the inspector see that is the required smoke for the room on rough inspection. It's not required, but helps. Also helps me if there is another round box for a light near where the smoke goes. I can quickly see which is light and which is a smoke. This happens alot in hallways where a normal light is going and a smoke is required.

I was just pointing out that even a "brain dead" inspector could see the red box was for a smoke alarm!

 

[Rick 0920]

No, it's if you independently attach the fan to the structure.

The contractors here are not installing fans. They are installing cheap light fixtures to fan rated boxes to meet the habitable room lighting requirements of 210.70. If what is being said is correct, it doesn't have to be a fan-rated box because the metal box is supported to the structure. What am I missing?

 

[Rick 0920]

I honestly thought that this type of box was what they were referring to at 314.27 (C)(2) This is a fan rated box complying with 314.27 The fan would not be supported by the box. The fan is supported by the structure and the box is simply used to enclose the conductors. Other fan boxes described in (C)(1) are: Fan rated boxes using 10-32 screws where the structure supports the box but the box supports the fan.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The contractors here are not installing fans. They are installing cheap light fixtures to fan rated boxes to meet the habitable room lighting requirements of 210.70. If what is being said is correct, it doesn't have to be a fan-rated box because the metal box is supported to the structure. What am I missing?

I thought they had changed this section but I am unclear. I thought if you have a block of wood behind the box then it doesn't have to be a fan rated box. The wording is odd for fans as it is much clearer for lights

(2) Ceiling Outlets.
At every outlet used exclusively for lighting, the box shall be designed or installed so that a luminaire or lampholder may be attached. Boxes shall be required to support a luminaire weighing a minimum of 23 kg (50 lb). A luminaire that weighs more than 23 kg (50 lb) shall be supported independently of the outlet box, unless the outlet box is listed for not less than the weight to be supported. The interior of the box shall be marked by the manufacturer to indicate the maximum weight the box shall be permitted to support.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This section seems to be clear that a fan rated box is only needed if the fan is supported by the box

2020 314.27(C) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). For outlet boxes or outlet box systems designed to support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 16 kg (35 lb), the required marking shall include the maximum weight to be supported.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The 2023 made a small change that says you must mount the fan thru the inside of the box.

2023 314.27(C) Boxes at Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer on the interior of the box as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). For outlet boxes or outlet box systems designed to support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 16 kg (35 lb), the required marking shall include the maximum weight to be supported.
Outlet boxes mounted in the ceilings of habitable rooms of dwelling occupancies in a location acceptable for the installation of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall comply with one of the following:

• (1)
  Listed for the sole support of ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans
• (2)
  Installed so as to allow direct access through the box to structural framing capable of supporting a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan without removing the box

 

[tortuga]

Here in Oregon we have a state code amendment for this section. It keeps the 2nd paragraph of the 2017 but not the first paragraph;

Where spare, separately switched, ungrounded conductors are provided to a ceiling-mounted outlet box, in a location acceptable for a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan in one-family, two-family, or multifamily dwellings, the outlet box or outlet box system shall be listed for sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans.

Thats the entire wording of 314.27(C)
So in anything other than residential mount the fan however you like, just follow fan instructions 110.3(B).
Or even in residential if there are not 'separately switched conductors' just follow fan instructions 110.3(B).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The 2023 made a small change that says you must mount the fan thru the inside of the box.

The key word for me are the words inside the box. My installs were always outside the box perimeter. IMO, this wording leaves it open to a box supported by a ceiling joist or blocking and as long as the fan is supported independently of the box then you don't need a fan rated box.

 

[tortuga]

The key word for me are the words inside the box. My installs were always outside the box perimeter. IMO, this wording leaves it open to a box supported by a ceiling joist or blocking and as long as the fan is supported independently of the box then you don't need a fan rated box.

I don't read it as requiring us to mount thru the box to a joist, you just have to be able to access the joist thru the box, in other works you have to situate a structural member over the box.

 

[LarryFine]

I don't read it as requiring us to mount thru the box to a joist, you just have to be able to access the joist thru the box, in other works you have to situate a structural member over the box.

Agreed. You have to be able to, but you don't have to.

 

[rc/retired]

He is saying that a homeowner could take the smoke down, wire a fan

This is the problem. The homeowner can remove all GFCI protection. Change out a 15 amp breaker for a 30 amp.
I'm pretty sure a lot of us have seen homeowner horrors.
I can't understand how your inspector can inspect by what could happen. Talk to his supervisor.
Good luck!

Ron

 

[gene6]

There are crazy laws around renting or selling a dwelling and smoke detectors in NYC. Realestate people have to file a "Affidavit of ompliance with smoke detector requirement" stating just that and are always really careful to make sure they are there.
If you converted a smokie to a ceiling fan you'd get a steep fine, even the worst slum lords dont mess with that.

 

[Fred B]

It would seem that the debate over ceiling fan vs smoke detector box should be a non starter.
1. smoke detector rough in would show up as only continuous run from one to another, interconnection.
2. no switch run to a smoke detector, a switch run would be required for the fan.
3. the reasonable view, really is anyone going to install a ceiling fan within less that 2 ft from wall or even Way off center as only ceiling outlet.
4. If the space can accommodate a ceiling fan or even a chandelier, a Fan rated enclosure should be installed vs a standard ceiling box. Seen way to many ceiling fixture that the homeowner later asks for a ceiling fan and the box is not adequate support and then they just get a handyman to install when you tell them the box must be changed to meet code.

Even if the current homeowner on new install say's they don't want a ceiling fan, nobody stays in the home for life, and the next owner will then ask for one, so just install a fan box anyway.

 

[tortuga]

4. If the space can accommodate a ceiling fan or even a chandelier, a Fan rated enclosure should be installed vs a standard ceiling box. Seen way to many ceiling fixture that the homeowner later asks for a ceiling fan and the box is not adequate support and then they just get a handyman to install when you tell them the box must be changed to meet code.

I wonder whats the smallest ceiling 'paddle' fan you can get? is what 18" blades 16" ? Whatever that is every ceiling outlet in a habitable room that is two feet or more from a wall / beam or obstruction is "location acceptable for the installation of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan" in your state ?

 

[retirede]

I wonder whats the smallest ceiling 'paddle' fan you can get? is what 18" blades 16" ? Whatever that is every ceiling outlet in a habitable room that is two feet or more from a wall / beam or obstruction is "location acceptable for the installation of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan" in your state ?

You can buy a fan that screws into a standard light socket. Less than 16” total diameter. I’m too lazy to scrutinize the NEC wording to see if they qualify as as “ceiling fan” or not??

 

[LarryFine]

You can buy a fan that screws into a standard light socket.