380v European Equipment

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Homes are almost entirely* 230V phase to neutral. In a typical suburban area, a number of homes are fed from a distribution transformer 11kV delta to 400V star, the star point being the neutral.
That's how it is in the UK. Italy, like all other countries in the EU, ought to be 4000/230 in accordance with the EU harmonised directive.

*Some very large mansions have a 3-phase supply. I know our lighting guys sometimes came across that.
And I would guess most of the loads are line to neutral (230 single phase). They possibly may have large HVAC equipment that may be three phase but that is probably about it for 400 volt connected equipment.

Which leads me to wonder if OP's machine isn't possibly three phase if it is supposedly rated 380 volts. Seems if it were single phase it would most likely be rated 220 - 240 volts
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Which leads me to wonder if OP's machine isn't possibly three phase if it is supposedly rated 380 volts.



I won't hazard a guess about the OPs equipment but 3 phase commercial kitchen equipment is pretty common. Last spring I connected a 50 amp, 230 volt, 3 phase espresso machine. The vendor required we boost the 208 to 230. The machine was about $18K so we provided 230 volt as requested.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
I would just contact the vendor or manufacturer for direction and not guess at it. I doubt your client is the only person in the USA to buy one of these. They might even have a kit you can buy to integrate it with your supply. Now you get to see how their after sales service is.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
If you look at most of the big transformer mfrs, they will all offer "K factor" transformers as standard products that will go from 208 or 230V 3 phase to 400Y230V 3 phase. It's because (as mentioned in another thread), data centers are using 400VY distribution. K-factor transformers are designed to handle the added neutral current from non-linear loads like computer power supplies. You will not need that for an espresso machine, but it doesn't hurt and as a standard transformer it will likely cost less than a custom one and be on the shelf.

I've done 2 Italian espresso machines similar to this, the Italians typically use Wye connected heater elements. For low power they use only one of them, high power it's all 3. So yes, you likely need to feed it 380V 3 phase power. This machine is a "hand press" meaning there are no pumps in it (unless you get the option for low water). All it has electrically will be resistive heater elements. They will not likely care if it gets 400V or 415V, that will just mean faster heating, but LESS than 380V and it will take LONGER to heat the water.

Getting a wiring diagram would be a great way to confirm this, I also highly recommend it. When I did mine, the vendors were less than helpful in providing accurate electrical information in advance, but there were good diagrams that came with the machines when they arrived. I think if you insist on it hard enough, you might get cooperation on that. The vendor company I did that work for started insisting on full manuals in advance from the machine mfrs after that experience (because I charged them for my time in investigating it). What they found was that the machine mfrs don't think it's necessary to provide manuals in advance because they are thinking in terms of connecting in Europe where these details are really irrelevant (because they WILL have the right voltage available).
 

Npstewart

Senior Member
If you look at most of the big transformer mfrs, they will all offer "K factor" transformers as standard products that will go from 208 or 230V 3 phase to 400Y230V 3 phase. It's because (as mentioned in another thread), data centers are using 400VY distribution. K-factor transformers are designed to handle the added neutral current from non-linear loads like computer power supplies. You will not need that for an espresso machine, but it doesn't hurt and as a standard transformer it will likely cost less than a custom one and be on the shelf.

I've done 2 Italian espresso machines similar to this, the Italians typically use Wye connected heater elements. For low power they use only one of them, high power it's all 3. So yes, you likely need to feed it 380V 3 phase power. This machine is a "hand press" meaning there are no pumps in it (unless you get the option for low water). All it has electrically will be resistive heater elements. They will not likely care if it gets 400V or 415V, that will just mean faster heating, but LESS than 380V and it will take LONGER to heat the water.

Getting a wiring diagram would be a great way to confirm this, I also highly recommend it. When I did mine, the vendors were less than helpful in providing accurate electrical information in advance, but there were good diagrams that came with the machines when they arrived. I think if you insist on it hard enough, you might get cooperation on that. The vendor company I did that work for started insisting on full manuals in advance from the machine mfrs after that experience (because I charged them for my time in investigating it). What they found was that the machine mfrs don't think it's necessary to provide manuals in advance because they are thinking in terms of connecting in Europe where these details are really irrelevant (because they WILL have the right voltage available).


Wow, you know your italian espresso machines! :)

The owner emailed me this morning and said the manufacturer took the machine back and is going to provide a 220v machine. However, because our voltage is 208, im going to have to boost the voltage to 220 and then request a wiring diagram to see if its 3 phase or single. I wonder if the 220v is the actual nominal voltage or if its kind of a general voltage kind of like when people say "Oh, thats a 220v dryer". I've tried to find European/Italian transformer diagrams on google but havent had any luck. Im not sure if 220 is a phase - phase voltage or phase - ground voltage. The wiring diagram will clear this up once its received.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
And I would guess most of the loads are line to neutral (230 single phase). They possibly may have large HVAC equipment that may be three phase but that is probably about it for 400 volt connected equipment.

Which leads me to wonder if OP's machine isn't possibly three phase if it is supposedly rated 380 volts. Seems if it were single phase it would most likely be rated 220 - 240 volts
I'm not sure that the three phase is to drive any three phase kit. At a guess, I would think it was probably to better distribute single phase loads.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Wow, you know your italian espresso machines! :)

The owner emailed me this morning and said the manufacturer took the machine back and is going to provide a 220v machine. However, because our voltage is 208, im going to have to boost the voltage to 220 and then request a wiring diagram to see if its 3 phase or single.
You could just ask that question since you are in contact with the manufacturer.......
That takes the responsibility away from you.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
Wow, you know your italian espresso machines! :)

The owner emailed me this morning and said the manufacturer took the machine back and is going to provide a 220v machine. However, because our voltage is 208, im going to have to boost the voltage to 220 and then request a wiring diagram to see if its 3 phase or single. I wonder if the 220v is the actual nominal voltage or if its kind of a general voltage kind of like when people say "Oh, thats a 220v dryer". I've tried to find European/Italian transformer diagrams on google but havent had any luck. Im not sure if 220 is a phase - phase voltage or phase - ground voltage. The wiring diagram will clear this up once its received.

220 in Italy is 220 volts to neutral or ground. but the machine may not care how it gets 220 only that it gets 220 either phase to phase or phase to neutral.
I know we took wall mount A/C's that were 240 VAC phase to phase USA voltage and connected them to 220 VAC phase to neutral (European) voltage and they worked fine.
We never tried the opposite of that to see what would happen.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
2 wire 220 will not care if its L-N or L-L.


In fact in places like Norway the 3 phase L-L voltage is 230 volts coming from an ungrounded (IT) source supply.



Jraef, thank you for that idea. It is gold and to be honest it probably would not have come to my mind.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The last Italian industrial machine I wired was labeled 400/230.

If I recall the supply house was able to provide us a 575 delta to 480Y/277 transformer that we supplied with 480 delta and the resulting output was 400Y/230 more or less.

So no one likes this idea or has any comments on it?

A 600 to 480 transformer is not hard to get, at least around here.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Using a standard 600 to 480 transformer in place of a custom 480 to 400 transformer is a great idea... but the OP has 208V going into the building.....

-Jon
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
So no one likes this idea or has any comments on it?

A 600 to 480 transformer is not hard to get, at least around here.

Id imagine you would need to de-rate the KVA rating a bit since current will still be a limiting factor on each winding. However, thats not to say that I do not like it :) You often have the most practical ideas. :thumbsup:
 

Open Neutral

Senior Member
Location
Inside the Beltway
Occupation
Engineer
I've done 2 Italian espresso machines similar to this, the Italians typically use Wye connected heater elements. For low power they use only one of them, high power it's all 3. So yes, you likely need to feed it 380V 3 phase power. This machine is a "hand press" meaning there are no pumps in it (unless you get the option for low water). All it has electrically will be resistive heater elements. They will not likely care if it gets 400V or 415V, that will just mean faster heating, but LESS than 380V and it will take LONGER to heat the water.


Butbutbut.... Won't they need to special-order 60Hz coffee to use the machine here?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Using a standard 600 to 480 transformer in place of a custom 480 to 400 transformer is a great idea... but the OP has 208V going into the building.....

-Jon

:ashamed1:

Well that changes things a bit. :D

It is rare that I work in a building without 480 so I tend to assume ...
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Id imagine you would need to de-rate the KVA rating a bit since current will still be a limiting factor on each winding. However, thats not to say that I do not like it :) You often have the most practical ideas. :thumbsup:

Lets be honest, it was not my idea. It was just something I installed and it seemed to be better than a custom wound transformer.

But that 208 vs 480 thing kind of puts a damper on it.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
But that 208 vs 480 thing kind of puts a damper on it.
Earlier I suggested that a 240V-480V delta-delta transformer might work. Are they readily available? If fed with 208V, the output would normally be 416V; would they typically have taps that could be used to reduce the output voltage to 400V or 380V?

Cheers, Wayne
 
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