400 amp residential service

[mwm1752]

My question is protected from what?

If you are simply passing through wall to panel on opposite side or maybe through a sill and then down a coupe feet to a panel - the risk of physical abuse often is not that great inside vs what it may be on the outside.

The physical damage section I was addressing is outside the building circumstances -- & passing through a concrete/brick wall into a panel would still be considered outside of the building. Are you implying that once you enter the building with service conductors / unfused you can install SE cable without protection of a raceway?

 

[kwired]

The physical damage section I was addressing is outside the building circumstances -- & passing through a concrete/brick wall into a panel would still be considered outside of the building. Are you implying that once you enter the building with service conductors / unfused you can install SE cable without protection of a raceway?

I don't run services with SE cable so I guess I am not all that well informed of such requirements if they exist. If I need to put it in raceway upon entering the building though I would just run the raceway the rest of the way to the meter and pull conductors instead of running cable in the first place. Makes SE cable fairly useless IMO for service conductors, other then maybe from meter to the service drop location.

 

[RichardL]

400 amp residential

400 amp residential

Almost always POCO refers to residential as a 360 continuous where as a 400 is designated commercial. The meter vans are not the same part #. Traditionally I will set a 360 can and into gutter where neutrals and grounding all terminate. back of gutter nipple into each interior main panelboard. Bond all back to gutter and done. I have had 1 POCO require me to bug feeders from meter as 1 run is longer than its other parallel run. Insane but he was right.

 

[GoldDigger]

That's 320, not 360.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[electrofelon]

The physical damage section I was addressing is outside the building circumstances -- & passing through a concrete/brick wall into a panel would still be considered outside of the building. Are you implying that once you enter the building with service conductors / unfused you can install SE cable without protection of a raceway?

Yes. I have actually never heard of any such restriction with SE cable other than whatever distance the AHJ will give you - SE same as if it were pipe. In NY it isnt specifically defined, but I could run SE service cable inside and exposed for about 5 feet.

 

[kwired]

Almost always POCO refers to residential as a 360 continuous where as a 400 is designated commercial. The meter vans are not the same part #. Traditionally I will set a 360 can and into gutter where neutrals and grounding all terminate. back of gutter nipple into each interior main panelboard. Bond all back to gutter and done. I have had 1 POCO require me to bug feeders from meter as 1 run is longer than its other parallel run. Insane but he was right.

If conductors are connected together on the supply end but not at the load end they are not parallel conductors for the purpose of making an overall larger capacity single conductor. They do not need to be same characteristics in such cases. You could come off that meter with six different sizes of conductors and supply six separate service disconnecting means as long as none of them connect together anywhere but the point they receive their supply.

If you put a distribution block in the gutter as the point to separate to individual disconnecting means then you need same conductor characteristics between meter and distribution block as those are parallel conductors for the purpose of making an overall larger capacity conductor.

 

[mwm1752]

Yes. I have actually never heard of any such restriction with SE cable other than whatever distance the AHJ will give you - SE same as if it were pipe. In NY it isnt specifically defined, but I could run SE service cable inside and exposed for about 5 feet.

This is the change NEC 2011
230.32 Protection Against Damage
Underground service conductors shall be protected against damage in accordance with 300.5.
Service conductors entering a building or other structure shall be installed in accordance with 230.6 or protected by a raceway wiring method identified in 230.43.

This is the prior NEC 2011
230.32 Protection Against Damage
Underground service conductors shall be protected against damage in accordance with 300.5.
Service-lateral conductors entering a building or other structure shall be installed in accordance with 230.6 or protected by a raceway wiring method identified in 230.43.

Notice 2 different definition exist in code
Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
Service Conductors, Underground. The underground conductors between the service point and the first point of connection to the service-entrance conductors in a terminal box, meter, or other enclosure, inside or outside the building wall.

 

[kwired]

This is the change NEC 2011
230.32 Protection Against Damage
Underground service conductors shall be protected against damage in accordance with 300.5.
Service conductors entering a building or other structure shall be installed in accordance with 230.6 or protected by a raceway wiring method identified in 230.43.

This is the prior NEC 2011
230.32 Protection Against Damage
Underground service conductors shall be protected against damage in accordance with 300.5.
Service-lateral conductors entering a building or other structure shall be installed in accordance with 230.6 or protected by a raceway wiring method identified in 230.43.

Notice 2 different definition exist in code
Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
Service Conductors, Underground. The underground conductors between the service point and the first point of connection to the service-entrance conductors in a terminal box, meter, or other enclosure, inside or outside the building wall.

230.32 is in part III "underground service conductors"

This part can't apply to type SE cable as type SE cable can not be used underground in the first place. A transition from another wiring method must happen before you can use type SE cable.

The main point of what 230.32 requires is that a direct bury wiring method would be required to be contained in raceway once it enters a building. Other methods (including SE cable) would already be suitable to be exposed inside a building.

 

[mwm1752]

230.32 is in part III "underground service conductors"

This part can't apply to type SE cable as type SE cable can not be used underground in the first place. A transition from another wiring method must happen before you can use type SE cable.

The main point of what 230.32 requires is that a direct bury wiring method would be required to be contained in raceway once it enters a building. Other methods (including SE cable) would already be suitable to be exposed inside a building.

alrighty now --

 

[ddecart]

[h=2]400 amp residential service[/h]

Hi, I am hoping some one has some pics of a 400 amp service they have done( and are willing to post). This will be my first one. I was wanting to come out of the meter can with two sets of 4/0 alum SE cable with side by side 200 panels directly behind meter can. All the pics i can find all have pvc or have a gutter put in. I was hoping to see how it looks before going ahead. Thanks

I can see now that this can also be looked at as a free standing service which you are discussing & not mounted on a exterior structure wall which I was discussing

So lets discuss your view with what little we know about this free standing service --​

338.12 Uses Not Permitted. (A) Service-Entrance Cable. Service-entrance cable (SE) shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
(1) Where subject to physical damage unless protected in accordance with 230.50(B) -- This is now a judgement call as subject to physical damage is not a specifically defined location in the Code, If not needed, then the raceway's listed are not required which now comes to full circle of your comment "which appears to be left to the whims of the individual inspector."
230.50 Protection Against Physical Damage
(B)Service-Entrance Cables. Service-entrance cables, where subject to physical damage, shall be protected by any of the following:
(1) Rigid metal conduit (RMC)
(2) Intermediate metal conduit (IMC)
(3) Schedule 80 PVC conduit
(4) Electrical metallic tubing (EMT)
(5) Reinforced thermosetting resin conduit (RTRC)
(6) Other approved means
(2) Underground with or without a raceway
(3) For exterior branch circuits and feeder wiring unless the installation complies with the provisions of Part I of Article 225 and is supported in accordance with 334.30 or is used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396
Part I of Article 225 -- does not apply as this is not on a exterior structure wall
225.10 Wiring on Buildings (or Other Structures). The installation of outside wiring on surfaces of buildings (or other structures) shall be permitted for circuits not exceeding 1000 volts, nominal, as the following:
(1) Auxiliary gutters
(2) Busways
(3) Cable trays
(4) Cablebus
(5) Electrical metallic tubing (EMT)
(6) Flexible metal conduit (FMC)
(7) Intermediate metal conduit (IMC)
(8) Liquidtight flexible metal conduit (LFMC)
(9) Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit (LFNC)
(10) Messenger-supported wiring
(11) Multiconductor cable
(12) Open wiring on insulators
(13) Reinforced thermosetting resin conduit (RTRC)
(14) Rigid metal conduit (RMC)
(15) Rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit (PVC)
(16) Type MC cable
(17) Type MI cable
(18) Type UF cable
(19) Wireways

simply if the 200 amp breakers are inside the building then the wiring method to reach them is also inside -- never said SER could not be used but if it was it would be protected once it entered the building. The service drop to the meter was not part of my comments I was describing the wiring method on the line side of the meter but the continuation to interior service disconnects was my intended discussion to your "By that, exposed service entrance cable should be a-ok" -- the only reason 230.6 was involved was due to interior service disconnects which became the topic of discussion IMO -- the question as I saw it was about wiring methods to inside service disconnects - Thank you for clarifying your view

Thanks for the detailed response. It seems that there IS no cut & dried answer to this and that it is ultimately left to the discretion of the inspector. Which is a pet-peeve of mine about the code, especially when it says "Here's a list of 36 different ways of doing something, and we'll throw in #37 as 'or any other approved method' " approved by WHO?

Protection from damage seems like the only real reason there would be requirements around having any sort of conduit at all for feeding an inside panel from an outside meter. The connections are in the boxes, so there shouldn't be anything unique that results in a shock hazard. We allow certain kinds of wire to be direct-buried, so it's not like water-contact is an inherent hazard. It has to come down to damage protection.

My question is protected from what?

If you are simply passing through wall to panel on opposite side or maybe through a sill and then down a coupe feet to a panel - the risk of physical abuse often is not that great inside vs what it may be on the outside.

Exactly. Protection from what? Acts of god? Hail? Rain? Locusts? Damage from the kid up the street who managed to ride his bike into the back of my bright red truck that was parked in the road? A precisely-flung rock from the lawn mower? A vandal with a box knife? A stumbling chainsaw-wielding assassin?

No risk of damage on the inside since it'll be fed through the wall directly into the back of the inside panel.

Outside is adjacent to the rear garage service door and the meter/service feed will be a few feet off the ground, a couple feet from the sidewalk whenever it goes in. Around the corner from the driveway to the rear.

Here's my setup. Meter is... well... I hope everyone can identify which box is the meter.... on the left is the temporary panel I've been running off for a while. It'll go away. The hole in the wall in the upper right goes directly into the back of one of the panels (the other panel is on the opposite side of the meter box). You can see the service door opening on the left.