50amp range circuit to island

[mikeames]

Whats the def for "Locations, Wet" in the NEC ver in play here?
Some slabs may not be in direct contact with earth, so I say here....... it depends.

But sure, just use wet rated wire, sleeve it, home run it, done.

I agree here. The Art 100 definition on "Location Wet" reads

Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

The only thing that applies here is the SLAB part. There is no getting around its in a slab. It may not be in contact with earth if there is foam insulation under the slab??? The rest does not apply because this will be the kitchen floor.

If the slab had a channel cut in it for the conduit to run through, and then that channel was filled with epoxy would it still be in a slab? No. The environment would still be the same. SO I agree that the code is clear that its considered "Wet Location" but I also agree that there should be an exception here that considers a potentially isolated slab under a kitchen floor "Dry".

 

[infinity]

If the slab had a channel cut in it for the conduit to run through, and then that channel was filled with epoxy would it still be in a slab? No. The environment would still be the same. SO I agree that the code is clear that its considered "Wet Location" but I also agree that there should be an exception here that considers a potentially isolated slab under a kitchen floor "Dry".

I believe that the issue is when it's in the slab (even if in a groove filled with epoxy) is that the conduit can get filled with water due to condensation. That's why it's a wet location. Certainly a glued PVC pipe run with elbows on both ends will never have water in it even if there was a spill on the floor.

 

[Coppersmith]

Certainly a glued PVC pipe run with elbows on both ends will never have water in it even if there was a spill on the floor.

It's best to assume that every underground conduit will get filled with water eventually. The slightest bit of air flow through the pipe or water intrusion will fill it up. Perhaps it will stay dry if your glue job is perfect and the glue never cracks and the ends are perfectly sealed with duct seal and never it pulls away and you filled the conduit with nitrogen before sealing it. (This assumes a crack doesn't develop in the PVC from resting on a sharp rock.)

 

[mikeames]

I believe that the issue is when it's in the slab (even if in a groove filled with epoxy) is that the conduit can get filled with water due to condensation. That's why it's a wet location. Certainly a glued PVC pipe run with elbows on both ends will never have water in it even if there was a spill on the floor.

Condensation only happens with a temperature difference. If the conduit is in the kitchen floor under the island and there is enough condensation to be an issue then the kitchen floor is going to be soaking wet. The portion of conduit here is going from an interior wall, under the kit floor and into an island, There will be no condensation even if it were in in 55 degree dirt and its not.

It's best to assume that every underground conduit will get filled with water eventually.

It may be best to assume that and in normal outdoor or long underground runs, I totally agree, but for 10 feet our so from an interior wall to a kitchen island I don't buy it.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The NEC does not always accommodate IBC stuff, or keep up with newer techniques being used on the IBC side.

Condensate requires a few things to "make it rain". Temp, RH, Pressure. If the sleeve was left open on both ends, you'll then have least chance of condensate forming, because like temp, RH also likes to migrate from high to low. Allowing airflow is best. But, can a sleeve as described be allowed to be left open on each end? One side is in a wall, and it's typical that NFPA wants all holes in upper and lower plates to be sealed, and the sleeve exit point is just a hole that is raised up some in the wall.

I would propose the easiest solution is to sleeve it, home-run it with "wet" cable, then fire-stop foam spray the sleeve opening that is in the wall, leave the island side open.

********************

As for cutting a channel to earth and then encapsulating a sleeve or conduit in epoxy...... I could argue that the epoxy (depending on type) is not a material that will "absorb or transfer" water, so it could then be considered an isolated protective barrier, and hence no need for wet rated cable. But that's too difficult and too costly to do just to save on diff between wet and non-wet rated cable, etc.

Take the ez route.......

 

[GoldDigger]

Split bolts with proper taping are perfectly acceptable, simply lots of work.

-Jon

These days fewer people new to the profession know how to properly tape a split bolt for both electrical and mechanical protection. And it is, IMHO, the most labor intensive part of the job.

 

[texie]

These days fewer people new to the profession know how to properly tape a split bolt for both electrical and mechanical protection. And it is, IMHO, the most labor intensive part of the job.

 

[Coppersmith]

These days fewer people new to the profession know how to properly tape a split bolt for both electrical and mechanical protection. And it is, IMHO, the most labor intensive part of the job.

Most labor intensive? I'd rather tape split bolts than dig a ditch.

 

[hillbilly1]

I remember when they first came out with clamshells, made building tennant services so much easier and faster!

 

[Peter Furrow]

Thanks for clarifying wet locations to include concrete slabs. It reminds me of another job that I got going on for a concrete restoration company. They are removing the walkways on a condominium because of spalling.
We are going to run Half inch PVC in the four-inch walkways that will be poured concrete.
There’s no soil obviously but this will constitute a wet location based off of article 100 definitions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FionaZuppa]

Wet location for masonry (which includes slabs) is "wet" if the masonry touches earh. Why the def says "slabs or masonry"? Concrete (be it a slab or otherwise) period IS masonry.

But that's a kinda wonky definition if you ask me. I pour a 18d x 24w footing and then build a block wall on that 8ft high inside a building. It's all technically "touching earth", so if I do a sleeve passthrough at 5ft high mark, I need wet wire?

When does masonry become NOT a wet location? What if I pour a concrete wall onto a keyed slab where slab is on earth, does that make the wall a "wet" location.

NEC verbiage really does need fixin.......... just in case you never heard me say that before

 

[GoldDigger]

Most labor intensive? I'd rather tape split bolts than dig a ditch.

Limited to the job of making the connection, whether by Polaris, wirenut, or split-bolt. When using split bolt the stripping and bolting is quick compared to the taping.

 

[LarryFine]

I'm good at taping; you could call me a wrap artist.

 

[kwired]

Wet location for masonry (which includes slabs) is "wet" if the masonry touches earh. Why the def says "slabs or masonry"? Concrete (be it a slab or otherwise) period IS masonry.

But that's a kinda wonky definition if you ask me. I pour a 18d x 24w footing and then build a block wall on that 8ft high inside a building. It's all technically "touching earth", so if I do a sleeve passthrough at 5ft high mark, I need wet wire?

When does masonry become NOT a wet location? What if I pour a concrete wall onto a keyed slab where slab is on earth, does that make the wall a "wet" location.

NEC verbiage really does need fixin.......... just in case you never heard me say that before

You are welcome to submit input for changes.

I do agree that not all cases of underground raceway or in slab on grade will necessarily result in condensation issues, but apparently they feel the chance is typically high enough to assume it can result in wet location conditions

 

[Coppersmith]

A story about condensation you may find interesting:

I worked at an orange juice factory here in Florida running conduit. The conduit started outside, run through a huge refrigerated warehouse, and ended outside again. Probably about a 300 foot straight run. The plan was always to seal the pipe on both ends to avoid condensation. However, during construction moist summer air blow through the pipe. The amount of water pouring out of the low end of the pipe looked like an half open faucet.

 

[LarryFine]

The conduit started outside, run through a huge refrigerated warehouse, and ended outside again.

You effectively created a condenser; it functioned perfectly.

 

[mikeames]

A story about condensation you may find interesting:

I worked at an orange juice factory here in Florida running conduit. The conduit started outside, run through a huge refrigerated warehouse, and ended outside again. Probably about a 300 foot straight run. The plan was always to seal the pipe on both ends to avoid condensation. However, during construction moist summer air blow through the pipe. The amount of water pouring out of the low end of the pipe looked like an half open faucet.

AS would be expected and not surprising. Starting outside, 300 feet, through refrigerated area, and in FL no less.

 

[zbang]

Working as expected, although maybe not as designed.

 

[readydave8]

Would not trust wire-nuts for a 50A circuit.

I have done it many times, especially hard-wired drop-in range, but don't remember any failing

 

[480sparky]

I have done it many times, especially hard-wired drop-in range, but don't remember any failing

Same here. Done it for years. Never had an issue.