6 disconnect rule violation?
- Thread starter mdshunk
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Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
MPD, how would you handle the 200 amp fusible switch scenario?
A continuosly blowing 125 amp fuse (over current in nature) could easily be remedied by installing a larger fuse as far as the layman user is concerned.
Please do tell.
Roger
[ November 21, 2005, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
MPD, how would you handle the 200 amp fusible switch scenario?
A continuosly blowing 125 amp fuse (over current in nature) could easily be remedied by installing a larger fuse as far as the layman user is concerned.
Please do tell.
Roger
[ November 21, 2005, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
When I first got into this industry, I was worried about everything - sort of like I conducted my daily life.
Now I worry about what I can control, that is the work I do, not to worry about who may do what to my installations in the near or later future. Again, if I was to worry about what someone else was to do, I would be very worried as there are about 6 billion people I would have to worry about
To narrow it down, even one person can ruin what I have done, but I do not worry about that.
BTW - to answer your question, you are exactly correct. Think of this. You install a 100 20 circuit panel, supplied with 2 AWG conductors. Someone comes along and ups the size of the circuit breaker supplying that panel, as the load trips it. Are you really going to worry about that possibility?
When I first got into this industry, I was worried about everything - sort of like I conducted my daily life.
Now I worry about what I can control, that is the work I do, not to worry about who may do what to my installations in the near or later future. Again, if I was to worry about what someone else was to do, I would be very worried as there are about 6 billion people I would have to worry about
To narrow it down, even one person can ruin what I have done, but I do not worry about that.
BTW - to answer your question, you are exactly correct. Think of this. You install a 100 20 circuit panel, supplied with 2 AWG conductors. Someone comes along and ups the size of the circuit breaker supplying that panel, as the load trips it. Are you really going to worry about that possibility?
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
An inspector may be wrong in how he interprets a code issue. Being wrong does not necessarily make him abusive. Just human.
If I were inspecting the job, I would require a main breaker and main breaker hold down. I would sleep just fine, not feel at all as though I was abusive, and you have the option to appeal to my boss, to the local construction board of appeals, to the state construction board of appeals, and to the civil courts.
[ November 22, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]
From the way your question (including assumption in parenthesis) is worded, it seems that you fed the panel with one 120v feed, wired directly to a single pole breaker to backfeed the panel and installed the required breaker hold down bracket. Is that correct?
You may interpret that as an abuse of power, I don't agree. I see it as his interpretation of the requirement, and not without merit. Every time you disagree with an inspector does not necessarily constitute an abuse of power on his part. I would consider it an abuse if the inspector was requiring something that he thought was not required or if he did not require something that he knew was required.
An inspector may be wrong in how he interprets a code issue. Being wrong does not necessarily make him abusive. Just human.
This is goofy thinking (IMO).
Yes you are, but each building must have a disconnecting means at the building being supplied per 225.31 and 225.32.
This is goofy too (IMO).
If I were inspecting the job, I would require a main breaker and main breaker hold down. I would sleep just fine, not feel at all as though I was abusive, and you have the option to appeal to my boss, to the local construction board of appeals, to the state construction board of appeals, and to the civil courts.
[ November 22, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
geezer,
Don
geezer,
If that were correct, the single breaker would be a main and there would be no need for this thread. I think that the main lugs are fed from the soruce and the breaker serves a single load at the panel location.
Don
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
Note that the fact that this breaker is installed at the second building makes the supply circuit a feeder and not a branch circuit and trigers the requirement for a grounding electrode at the second building.
Don
Note that the fact that this breaker is installed at the second building makes the supply circuit a feeder and not a branch circuit and trigers the requirement for a grounding electrode at the second building.
Don
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
get at the issue of the breaker hold down bracket. In this instance I don't know why it is mentioned if the feed is connected to the main lugs. I suppose I should have just asked.
[ November 22, 2005, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]
Yes Don, I agree with you. I was just trying to
get at the issue of the breaker hold down bracket. In this instance I don't know why it is mentioned if the feed is connected to the main lugs. I suppose I should have just asked.
[ November 22, 2005, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
If I were inspecting the job, I would require a main breaker and main breaker hold down. I would sleep just fine, not feel at all as though I was abusive, and you have the option to appeal to my boss, to the local construction board of appeals, to the state construction board of appeals, and to the civil courts.
1. What code section would you cite?
2. Would you hold a grudge after losing their appeal?
[ November 22, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: engy ]
If I were inspecting the job, I would require a main breaker and main breaker hold down. I would sleep just fine, not feel at all as though I was abusive, and you have the option to appeal to my boss, to the local construction board of appeals, to the state construction board of appeals, and to the civil courts.
1. What code section would you cite?
2. Would you hold a grudge after losing their appeal?
[ November 22, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: engy ]
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
2. Not at all. That is part of what the appeal process is for. In some circumstances I really wish to see an appeal. May be hard to believe, but in some instances, I am not thrilled with the requirement that I am enforcing. The code is adopted by the local government body, and I am charged with enforcing it. I may not be in complete agreement with some requirements, and some I may outright disagree with, but like them or not I am responsible to enforce them. My interpretation is always open to discussion. A decision rendered by an appeal actually diffuses the tension that can be created when an agreement is not otherwise reached. The appeal process also effectively allows an appeal board appointed by the government that employs me to decide to forgo code requirements that I think that I cannot. In some cases, I have strongly encouraged the appeal.
3. I would not necessesarily call an appeal decision to disagree with my interpretation or to overturn my decision to be a loss.
[ November 22, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
1. 225.33
2. Not at all. That is part of what the appeal process is for. In some circumstances I really wish to see an appeal. May be hard to believe, but in some instances, I am not thrilled with the requirement that I am enforcing. The code is adopted by the local government body, and I am charged with enforcing it. I may not be in complete agreement with some requirements, and some I may outright disagree with, but like them or not I am responsible to enforce them. My interpretation is always open to discussion. A decision rendered by an appeal actually diffuses the tension that can be created when an agreement is not otherwise reached. The appeal process also effectively allows an appeal board appointed by the government that employs me to decide to forgo code requirements that I think that I cannot. In some cases, I have strongly encouraged the appeal.
3. I would not necessesarily call an appeal decision to disagree with my interpretation or to overturn my decision to be a loss.
[ November 22, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
1.) 225.31 states that we need a disconnect
2.) 225.33 permits two to six disco's grouped
3.) 225.36 states that the disconnect is to be suitable for use as service equipment.
4.) 225.39 requires the rating of the disconnect is to be 60 amps for "all others".
Have you met all the above conditions?
As for the future....
Inspect not Expect!
Jim
1.) 225.31 states that we need a disconnect
2.) 225.33 permits two to six disco's grouped
3.) 225.36 states that the disconnect is to be suitable for use as service equipment.
4.) 225.39 requires the rating of the disconnect is to be 60 amps for "all others".
Have you met all the above conditions?
As for the future....
Inspect not Expect!
Jim
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
That is pretty much a definition for abuse of power and if that is how you do your job you should be fired ASAP.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
Let's play nice, guys. "Love thy neighbor and thy enemy" and all that.
Let's play nice, guys. "Love thy neighbor and thy enemy" and all that.
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
And if I were the EC, I would do exactly that.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
Originally posted by geezer:
Really? How about I just give back that big raise I just got?
So congratulations on your raise.
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
ignorant. If I thought that I was making the correct decision, I would not lose sleep over it.
First of all, maybe I could be convinced of the error of my ways. As I said you can appeal to my boss, if he is also both wrong and ignorant, you still have other options as you already know. I would not hold a grudge against a person who disagreed with my decision. I am glad that the appeal process is in place and is very accessible. I am not intending to abuse my position and would have no problem being corrected. Heck, I'm easy, ya almost got me convinced already. I will agree that the wording of my post would lead you to conclude that I have a very bad attitude. It was not meant to sound that way.
[ November 22, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
Calm down guys. Let's say I'm both wrong and
ignorant. If I thought that I was making the correct decision, I would not lose sleep over it.
First of all, maybe I could be convinced of the error of my ways. As I said you can appeal to my boss, if he is also both wrong and ignorant, you still have other options as you already know. I would not hold a grudge against a person who disagreed with my decision. I am glad that the appeal process is in place and is very accessible. I am not intending to abuse my position and would have no problem being corrected. Heck, I'm easy, ya almost got me convinced already. I will agree that the wording of my post would lead you to conclude that I have a very bad attitude. It was not meant to sound that way.
[ November 22, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
I guess if you write enough red tags they can afford to.If you can sleep knowing your steeling when your righting tags that are for non violations then good for you.Even when you back down on a red tag you already have stole the EC time.
I guess if you write enough red tags they can afford to.If you can sleep knowing your steeling when your righting tags that are for non violations then good for you.Even when you back down on a red tag you already have stole the EC time.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?
I'm pretty sure that "geezer" is the inspector I referenced when I first posted in this thread. If not, my apologies to geezer. If so, I'm surprised that you're not convinced yet to change your mind.
Yes, the panel in question here is fed by the main lugs. I just did't want this to break down to an arguement on whether the max 6 breakers needed hold down's or not, so I just posted to assume that they have them. The hold down is not the issue. The MLO panel size, even though there are not 6 disconnects installed, is the issue.
[ November 22, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
I'm pretty sure that "geezer" is the inspector I referenced when I first posted in this thread. If not, my apologies to geezer. If so, I'm surprised that you're not convinced yet to change your mind.
Yes, the panel in question here is fed by the main lugs. I just did't want this to break down to an arguement on whether the max 6 breakers needed hold down's or not, so I just posted to assume that they have them. The hold down is not the issue. The MLO panel size, even though there are not 6 disconnects installed, is the issue.
[ November 22, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
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