80 circuit panel?

[infinity]

Personally I prefer to keep the 42 circuit limit. I can just see an 80 circuit panel with 50, 60, 70 or 80 two wire cables coming into tho top. Talk about a mess.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Joe,

Its the same panel you get in the US. I have one in my basement.

I'll bet your panel has rejection features so that you cannot install 40 tandem breakers...of course you could if you use non-CTL breakers.
Don

 

[brantmacga]

I agree! Please dont misunderstand me. 40 tandem breakers is 80 circuits. 40 sp breakers with two wires on it is still only 40 circuits, not 80.

I thought I was clear in stating my opinion that its a play on words by square D (a marketing ploy). They give you 40 spaces, say it can have 80 circuits, and sell it in the US where it would be a violation to have more than 42 circuits.
Why would they advertise a product that would violate NEC? It doesn't make sense. It must be a marketing ploy for the do it yourself home owner. As I said:


Im not the best at clearly communicating through writing, sorry.

I didn't understand the thought you were trying to imply in the original post. I'm pretty sure this panel is not available in the united states, hence the confusion. Its just a relabled 40 circuit they're selling in another country.

 

[iwire]

Personally I prefer to keep the 42 circuit limit. I can just see an 80 circuit panel with 50, 60, 70 or 80 two wire cables coming into tho top. Talk about a mess.

I am glad they are removing the limit from the NEC as IMO it is not a safety issue but a design decision.

That said I doubt I would ever choose more than a 42 circuit panel for the reason Trevor mentions.

I think a 42 can be crowded enough and I work with 21" W x 7" D panel boards, never mind a 14.5" W x 3.5" D Load center.

 

[infinity]

I think a 42 can be crowded enough and I work with 21" W x 7" D panel boards, never mind a 14.5" W x 3.5" D Load center.

The 14 1/2" X 3 1/2" panel was exactly what I was thinking about. I've seen some 40 circuit ones that were a nightmare. I can't imagine what an 80 circuit would look like.:roll:

 

[iwire]

The 14 1/2" X 3 1/2" panel was exactly what I was thinking about.

They will include 3" long screws to squeeze the conductors in with the cover.

 

[kbsparky]

....I thought I was clear in stating my opinion that its a play on words by square D (a marketing ploy). They give you 40 spaces, say it can have 80 circuits, and sell it in the US where it would be a violation to have more than 42 circuits.
Why would they advertise a product that would violate NEC? It doesn't make sense.....

Let me clarify. This panel is from CANADA, and has a Canadian model number on it. It was offered on eBay, and that is where I found it. Square D did not at any time market this panel in the US with the 80 circuit labeling on it.

But they do manufacture plenty of non-ctl tandem breakers, and now I understand why: These will fit anywhere in the panel, with no physical rejection means to limit the number of circuits installed.

So the question will be once the 2008 NEC is adopted, will the manufacturers stop making CTL panels and breakers?

 

[George Stolz]

I'm not sure what will happen.

One thing about it, we would have more room to space out AFCIs if the heating issues do become a problem, that much would be a big shot in the arm.

 

[iwire]

One thing about it, we would have more room to space out AFCIs

This posses an interesting question to me.

Keeping in mind that under the 2008 the majority of the breakers will be AFCIs how do we space the AFCIs and maintain good panel balance?

It seems we will be stuck like this

1-   AFCI       SPACE -2
3-   SPACE    AFCI    -4
5-   AFCI      SPACE  -6
7-   SPACE    AFCI    -8
9-   AFCI      SPACE  -10
11- SPACE    AFCI    -12
13- AFCI      SPACE  -14
15- SPACE    AFCI    -16
17- AFCI      SPACE  -18
19- SPACE    AFCI    -20

Also this question of using tandems does not make sense to me.

There are no tandem AFCIs, so just allowing a 40/80 panel does not seem to solve any problem.

I had assumed we would be seeing 80 'space' bus bar arraignments.

 

[George Stolz]

There are no tandem AFCIs, so just allowing a 40/80 panel does not seem to solve any problem.

And then there comes the question, will the manufacturers acknowledge on some level that their AFCIs are too warm to snuggle up to each other, and start making 80/160 panelboards?

Now that there is no limitation, they would be more free to make things like that.

Another thought - are we going to be seeing 50/100 space panels, or are they going to keep making the same panels they are currently? If there's no change at the factory, then it's a fairly meaningless rule, 110.3(B) will still dictate the number of breakers that can be installed in each panel, right?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

For some who will be installing the AFCI CBs for most circuits in a dwelling under the 2008 version of the NEC (many jurisdictions will not be on that cycle probably for years), they will be installing the newer type "Combination" type. The manufacturers have all changed the electronics in the Combination type to run using less miliwatts, thus run cooler. No, I have not installed any of these yet, but I have had conversations with the head of development for both SQD and CH about this. I guess we will have to wait and see...

My understanding is there is a 60 slot panel that has spaces for 60 actual 3/4 CBs. I do not remember where I heard this, but I will try to locate it???

As others have mentioned here, I find it hard to believe that a standard size 40 ckt panel can accept 80 ckts with the related conductors that are installed for them... I do not believe that it will be able to conform to 312.6 & 312.8 - I could be wrong, I have not performed any calcs on this yet.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

UL will still limit the number of circuits/panelboard

UL will still limit the number of circuits/panelboard

One other thing to remember. The 2008 NEC will no longer restrict the number of circuits for a panelboard. The UL listing/labeling will, based on the manufacturer/UL testing of the particular panelboards. Not all panelboards will be listed/labeled to accept untold number of circuits.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

With an 80 circuit panel kept as the same size as a 40 cir panel you would never get all the grounded conductors on the bar without doubling them.

I still say just design the job with lots of sub panels. I find them easier more efficient and almost as cost effective as running long lengths back to a main panelboard. Also less VD.

 

[cowboyjwc]

So many of the houses we're building now are loading up the panels so there is no room left for expansion. Most of the time there is no room to add circuits for the swimming pools and such. As long as the NEC keeps adding circuits for this and that, they were going to have to do something sooner or later. You get in an all electric house and the kitchen alone could use 10 or 12 of those spaces.

I don't think it's a bad idea to eliminate the 42 circuit limit.

That being said I also have some of the same concerns that others have stated. Room on the ground bar, wire space, etc.

 

[jim dungar]

Remember, just because the NEC allows more than 42 circuits, you still will not be allowed to install more than the manufacturer allows per 110.3(B).

When they start making 80 circuit panels, I am sure they will have the "proper" amount of grounded conductor terminations.

 

[SeanKelly]

Forgive me if I missed the answer but what is the advantage of an 80 circuit panel? Every plus I can think of is off set by large design problems. Can someone explain if I am missing something

 

[iwire]

Sean it looks like under the 2008 NEC almost all circuits in dwelling units will be required to have AFCI protection.

AFCI breakers run hot and at least one AFCI maker recommends that AFCIs are not located side by side.

An 80 circuit panel may be needed so you can space the AFCIs out leaving spaces between them.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that an AFCI manufacturer is behind the proposal to allow 80 circuit panels.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Sean it looks like under the 2008 NEC almost all circuits in dwelling units will be required to have AFCI protection.

AFCI breakers run hot and at least one AFCI maker recommends that AFCIs are not located side by side.

An 80 circuit panel may be needed so you can space the AFCIs out leaving spaces between them.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that an AFCI manufacturer is behind the proposal to allow 80 circuit panels.

Bob
Your first line.
I think that some areas of the home will not require the AFCI, but many will.

Your Second line.
With the advent of the newer type AFCI (combination type) the running temp for the electronics of the AFCI will become somewhat lower.

Your Third line.
I agree 100% and will add that I think UL also had a large hand in this as well (all speculation of course )


About the circuit allowance for panel enclosure/panelboards change. The manufacturers do not want anymore liability than in the past. With that said, there will be limitations as to the number of circuits per panelboard, but those limitations will not be directed by the NEC other than 110.3(B).
The label on the side of the enclosure the panelboard is located in (that so many seem to never even look at) will now become the guiding force as to how many circuits can be installed on the panelboard.

I myself am curious as to how the manufacturer will address this for the code cycle change, and then how will the installer/inspector handle it as well. I do think there will be some confusion and then costly mistakes made- lending to a learning curve that will become habit in a year or two after the code cycle change.




One other note:

I am very curious as to how the jurisdictions who do not adopt the 2008 will handle this situation. Our area will probably adopt the '08 NEC some time in 2010...interesting.

 

[iwire]

I think that some areas of the home will not require the AFCI, but many will.

From the 2008 NEC Draft

(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits installed in dwelling units shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination
type installed to provide protection of the branch
circuit. [ROP 2–105, 2–142, 2–111]

I realize this is not final but it seems to include a lot.

With the advent of the newer type AFCI (combination type) the running temp for the electronics of the AFCI will become somewhat lower.

The manufacturers have promised many things. This time the promise is for a device that has more capabilities, is more responsive and will run cooler.

I will wait and see on that.

About the circuit allowance for panel enclosure/panelboards change. The manufacturers do not want anymore liability than in the past. With that said, there will be limitations as to the number of circuits per panelboard, but those limitations will not be directed by the NEC other than 110.3(B).

I am not following you here, I bet they will make panels with as many spaces as will sell.

 

[GeorgeB]

I believe that, in addition to the AFCI heat issues, there is another significant justification for residential panels with more than 42 circuits. There are increasingly requirements for "dedicated" circuits by both NEC and by manufacturers of equipment and appliances. Just one recent example is that it was "common" to see one GFCI circuit used for 2 bathrooms and the outdoor string. Today, that requires 3 circuits.

I plug several tools (electric pressure washer as one example) that instruct me to use a dedicated circuit. Some (many/most/all?) window air conditioners have that specified. I predict that residential electricians and designers doing middle and upscale homes will soon have multiple receptacle circuits in every room ... and labeling will be a real nightmare.