A Publication AFCI manufacturers and CMPs don't want you to read

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Hello IWIRE :)

You write in you post #30 "Those are not GFCIs. Here those would be GFP at best. GFCIs must have a trip level between 4 to 6 MA".

I asked for clarification on the position # 36, I will be very interested in your answer, maybe you have not seen my post?

I ask you again if you wish.

Indeed, here, when we taking the first screwdriver in hand, we bathed in the differential devices placed at the head of the circuits... It's everywhere and in all forms (instant, delayed, adjustable, etc ...)...
(but we have not electronic differential devices, and not differential 5 or 6 m.Amp).

Can you tell me what is the difference between a differential device, a GFP and a GFCI, please?

I am very curious and I'd like you to teach me something by answering my question I will be very happy.

I thank you in advance,

Best regards,

ICC -

In the US, GFCI specifically means a device designed for the protection of people. It has a non-adjustable trip setting of 4-6 mA.

GFP is for the protection of equipment the settings vary and are often adjustable.

Now both those devices operate in much the same way but they are not interchangeable.


But why some here are calling AFCIs 'glorified GFCIs' I have no idea. Some AFCI have ground fault detection but in others that has been eliminated.


Like many others I think the AFCI rules should be removed but at the same time I am not ready to join the tin foil hat crowd so strongly represented in this thread.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
...
In fact, there are lot of studies. By manufacturers, insurances companies (I saw with my eyes and I was not alone) and even "antique" studies (1977). Everybody knows that glowing connections are the main cause of electrical fire... .
There are no real studies of actual fires in the US that will give you that information. The vast majority of residential fires do not get an investigation that goes deep enough into the fire cause to show the fire was joule heating or an arcing fault.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Then why do so many believe AFCIs without questioning them twice? It is absolutely no secret things as simple as waveform analysis isn't published. How many know exactly what that test button does?
I have no idea. Maybe they just trust and accept what the manufacturers say about them, and don't do any further research. Most electricians do not spend time here on this forum and others to further their education, so it's really no surprise there is widespread ignorance. The information on this forum is free and available to all for the taking, it simply requires effort to get educated which most are not willing to put forth.

I never mentioned education institutions them selves are withholding information. I see people making leaps, which is perhaps my error. But let me put it this way. Why was it that as little as 20 years ago professional books said that ground rods were responsible for opening OCPDs? Why was it that the CMPs even held similar views of earthing being the center point of article 250?
Again, lack of education on theory. I'm not believing in some grand conspiracy like you are, just plain ignorance all around.
 

peter d

Senior Member
That being said, I certainly believe the manufacturers were intentionally dishonest when they rushed a fraudulent, unproven product onto the market. The NEC was complicit in this as they have had more than enough time to roll back the AFCI rules until a reliable product can be made.
 

peter d

Senior Member
See you are just naive, the manufacturers, CMP members, the CPSC, the public and private educators, libraries and even the internet have all gotten together in conclusion to prevent our education so that AFCIs would be blindly excepted.

Isn't that obvious? :lol:
Yeah, my bad. :lol::roll::happyno:
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
But why some here are calling AFCIs 'glorified GFCIs' I have no idea. Some AFCI have ground fault detection but in others that has been eliminated.

Because for the sake of the argument be it 30ma GFP or 5ma GFCI both offer the same level of protection in terms of fire safety. You are correct however that in relation to electrocution protection 5ma is considered to offer that level of protection where 30ma will not in North America.



I am not ready to join the tin foil hat crowd so strongly represented in this thread.
Yet you have in the past regarding your comments on the CMPs and manufactures. (No I will not dig them up, but they are there in past AFCI threads) I however don't blame you, there is a very fine line between saying AFCIs don't work and the CMP knew that yet voted yes.
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
There are no real studies of actual fires in the US that will give you that information. The vast majority of residential fires do not get an investigation that goes deep enough into the fire cause to show the fire was joule heating or an arcing fault.
Exactly, so how did the powers that be determine it was all arcing? Let alone breakers that do not trip fast enough.
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
I have no idea. Maybe they just trust and accept what the manufacturers say about them, and don't do any further research. Most electricians do not spend time here on this forum and others to further their education, so it's really no surprise there is widespread ignorance. The information on this forum is free and available to all for the taking, it simply requires effort to get educated which most are not willing to put forth.

But why arent folks willing to put the effort in? Why do people so blindly believe what the powers that be say? And many folks seem to bail when there knowledge of AFCIs is challenged. Perhaps I am biased, but to myself it has always confused me.


Again, lack of education on theory. I'm not believing in some grand conspiracy like you are, just plain ignorance all around.
But there is without a doubt a conspiracy by manufactures and other key players to play off that ignorance.
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
In the US, GFCI specifically means a device designed for the protection of people. It has a non-adjustable trip setting of 4-6 mA.

GFP is for the protection of equipment the settings vary and are often adjustable.

Now both those devices operate in much the same way but they are not interchangeable.


But why some here are calling AFCIs 'glorified GFCIs' I have no idea. Some AFCI have ground fault detection but in others that has been eliminated.


Like many others I think the AFCI rules should be removed but at the same time I am not ready to join the tin foil hat crowd so strongly represented in this thread.
Hello IWIRE :)

You write in you post #30 "Those are not GFCIs. Here those would be GFP at best. GFCIs must have a trip level between 4 to 6 MA".

I asked for clarification on the position # 36, I will be very interested in your answer, maybe you have not seen my post?

I ask you again if you wish.

Indeed, here, when we taking the first screwdriver in hand, we bathed in the differential devices placed at the head of the circuits... It's everywhere and in all forms (instant, delayed, adjustable, etc ...)...
(but we have not electronic differential devices, and not differential 5 or 6 m.Amp).

Can you tell me what is the difference between a differential device, a GFP and a GFCI, please?

I am very curious and I'd like you to teach me something by answering my question I will be very happy.

I thank you in advance,

Best regards,

ICC -
In terms of fire protection there is no difference. Here is an example where an AFCI did indeed catch a defect preventing a possible fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEH80R5AabQ

At 1:35 the mechanism of action is explained. Now, I ask, what difference would it make if that breaker were a GFCI or a 30ma EGFP instead of that particular AFCI?

And yes I know while most ballasts are encapsulated in tar, low end ballasts like those found in Home center shop lights and early electronic Motorola ballasts (like those found in many commercial Lithonia fixtures from the 90s, I know you've seen those Mr Iwire :p) have no potting compound.
 

ICC

Member
There are no real studies of actual fires in the US that will give you that information. The vast majority of residential fires do not get an investigation that goes deep enough into the fire cause to show the fire was joule heating or an arcing fault.

Thank you don_resqcapt19 for your reply :)

Could you tell me what you call "arc fault" please?

Thank you in advance,

Best regards,

ICC-
 

ICC

Member
In the US, GFCI specifically means a device designed for the protection of people. It has a non-adjustable trip setting of 4-6 mA.

GFP is for the protection of equipment the settings vary and are often adjustable.

Now both those devices operate in much the same way but they are not interchangeable.


But why some here are calling AFCIs 'glorified GFCIs' I have no idea. Some AFCI have ground fault detection but in others that has been eliminated.


Like many others I think the AFCI rules should be removed but at the same time I am not ready to join the tin foil hat crowd so strongly represented in this thread.
Thank you very much for you reply :)

So if I understand well it is simply current devices that have several names depending on their sensitivity and trigger delay?

Sorry for my English...

Best regards
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Thank you very much for you reply :)

So if I understand well it is simply current devices that have several names depending on their sensitivity and trigger delay?

Sorry for my English...

Best regards
And purpose and design.

A GFCI or GFP may be part of a combination unit as in a GFCI or GFP circuit breaker or they can be stand alone devices that only protect against line to ground faults and do nothing for line to line faults or simple circuit overloads.



Can I ask you why a person living in France cares one bit about what the NEC AFCI rules are?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Then why do so many believe AFCIs without questioning them twice?
Who is this 'many' and how did you determine what their level of education is?

I would say the majority of ECs and electricians that have to install AFCIs do not like them or trust that they add to safety. I have determined that by watching the posts on many forums since about 2000.


You seem to be confusing 'blind acceptance' with having to pass inspections and in most areas you will install AFCIs regardless of accepting that the technology works or not. That is how people who earn their living installing electrical equipment have to deal with it. This is different than you, you seem to have the time to rant about codes that you will never change.

It does not make them ignorant, it makes them get paid.

It is absolutely no secret things as simple as waveform analysis isn't published. How many know exactly what that test button does?
I have no idea what the test button does in a AFCI. It does not matter, if I am doing a job that calls for AFCIs they will be installed. It is that simple.
 

ICC

Member
I would say this explains it. In this case it is a current limited circuit running at least 150 volts to ground if not more.

Ok, thank you for your reply iwire :)

Here we talk about "insulation fault" and this is feasible has Two consequences.

1 / - Earth leakage = precociously detected by the differential device = no problem

2 / -Short Circuit Phase - Neutral or Phase - Phase = precociously detected by the sensitive circuitry breaker (with coil) = no problem

For us, arcs are not a cause, arcs are always consequences of faults. I want to say also, without wanting to offend but just to explain the differences, the acs products in this video are impossible with differential devices 0.5, 0.3, 0.03 Amp or with sensitive breakers.

That was the purpose of the video, where you can see the difference betwenn arcs:

(2'18 & 4'10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4

We use differential devices since 1960's and sensitive breakers since 1990's.

Thank you very much again and sorry for my english.

If I can help,

Best regards,

ICC-
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
For us, arcs are not a cause, arcs are always consequences of faults.
For sure, same here but not all faults are the same. Some are what we call 'bolted faults' which result in a fault with no arcing. But there are also arcing faults which the video I posted tends to demonstrate. (Keep in mind that was a current limited circuit to an HID lamp. not what we would call a branch circuit)

I want to say also, without wanting to offend but just to explain the differences, the acs products in this video are impossible with differential devices 0.5, 0.3, 0.03 Amp or with sensitive breakers.
Nothing is impossible, and sure we can make breakers as sensitive as we feel we need but false tripping becomes an issue.

We use differential devices since 1960's and sensitive breakers since 1990's.
Unlike mbrooke I could not possibly care any less at all about what other countries use or how they do things. i am not an electrician outside of my area.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
And purpose and design.

A GFCI or GFP may be part of a combination unit as in a GFCI or GFP circuit breaker or they can be stand alone devices that only protect against line to ground faults and do nothing for line to line faults or simple circuit overloads.
I'm unaware of GFP that address circuit overloads Mr IWire


~RJ~
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
Can I ask you why a person living in France cares one bit about what the NEC AFCI rules are?

While I can not speak for another person, I would understand his concern. AFCIs, also known as AFDDs in the IEC, are scheduled to hit the European market and even become mandated by some foreign codes. It would not surprise me if in 20 years AFCIs become mandatory for all dwelling circuits in France.


https://www.lowvoltage.siemens.com/infocenter/doc/04_ds_5SM6AFDUnitsAdvancedPreventativeFireProtection_EN_2938.pdf


Who is this 'many' and how did you determine what their level of education is?

Inspectors, CMP members, FF, ect. They have all levels of education.

I would say the majority of ECs and electricians that have to install AFCIs do not like them or trust that they add to safety. I have determined that by watching the posts on many forums since about 2000.

Perhaps, I may be biased, however forums does not speak for all electricians. But you are correct, it would be impossible to gauge the exact percent of electricians agree, disagree or remain neutral regarding AFCIs.

You seem to be confusing 'blind acceptance' with having to pass inspections and in most areas you will install AFCIs regardless of accepting that the technology works or not. That is how people who earn their living installing electrical equipment have to deal with it.

From a legal standpoint, but it does not make it right. Everyone one of those folks have the power to ask questions and write to legislators. And it does not mean those who have power over laws should sit idle. Consider how many states, municipalities, ect have adopted the NEC without even questioning 210.12. Michigan and Indiana were the only ones that did in any detail. New Hamshire was looking into it, but I am not sure what side they took.


This is different than you, you seem to have the time to rant about codes that you will never change.
If enough people speak up, it will change. This may be perhaps why nothing changes, because every person thinks 'whats the point, I am only one', and in turn that is just what happens.


It does not make them ignorant, it makes them get paid.
In the driest sense it does. But that does not mean those folks ought to remain complacent. Doing so is only aiding a host off issues, some which effect the contractor/electrician's profit. How many have chased nuisance tripping to find nothing wrong?

I have no idea what the test button does in a AFCI. It does not matter, if I am doing a job that calls for AFCIs they will be installed. It is that simple.

It does not matter for the job, but I would be perpetuating a crime knowing I am selling an empty fire extinguisher when I can speak up and ask for such to be published.
 

mbrooke

Senior Member
Ok, thank you for your reply iwire :)

Here we talk about "insulation fault" and this is feasible has Two consequences.

1 / - Earth leakage = precociously detected by the differential device = no problem

2 / -Short Circuit Phase - Neutral or Phase - Phase = precociously detected by the sensitive circuitry breaker (with coil) = no problem

For us, arcs are not a cause, arcs are always consequences of faults. I want to say also, without wanting to offend but just to explain the differences, the acs products in this video are impossible with differential devices 0.5, 0.3, 0.03 Amp or with sensitive breakers.

That was the purpose of the video, where you can see the difference betwenn arcs:

(2'18 & 4'10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMC6PkpiIq4

We use differential devices since 1960's and sensitive breakers since 1990's.

Thank you very much again and sorry for my english.

If I can help,

Best regards,

ICC-

What is your earthing system in France btw?
 

ICC

Member
For sure, same here but not all faults are the same. Some are what we call 'bolted faults' which result in a fault with no arcing. But there are also arcing faults which the video I posted tends to demonstrate. (Keep in mind that was a current limited circuit to an HID lamp. not what we would call a branch circuit)
It's the same here, we have a different classification for faults. We never speak about arc, because arcs are always consequence of defautls.

Nothing is impossible, and sure we can make breakers as sensitive as we feel we need but false tripping becomes an issue..
Never arcs like your vidéo, never. And never false tripping with sensitive breakers, never.

Unlike mbrooke I could not possibly care any less at all about what other countries use or how they do things. i am not an electrician outside of my area.
No problem. It was a little difficult for me at first to understand the US electrical installations ...:)

I will come back, I am too busy now, but it's interresting :thumbsup: thank you.

Best regards,

ICC-
 
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