A Publication AFCI manufacturers and CMPs don't want you to read

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
Unlike mbrooke I could not possibly care any less at all about what other countries use or how they do things. i am not an electrician outside of my area.
But it pays to research. AFCIs are a blatant knock off of the IEC's arc mitigation system, or at least that is what many in the development of AFCIs obsessed replicating. So much to the point they went as far as convincing the CPSC and in turn manufactures to replicate European circuit breakers. AFCIs are just a counterfeit extension of that.


AFCIs have not been a success in the US, yet despite this they are being sold to the rest of the world as an original idea full of success supposed to revolutionize in fire mitigation when they are not only a gimmick but a microcode imitation of existing IEC fire mitigation techniques.


http://blog.schneider-electric.com/power-management-metering-monitoring-power-quality/2013/07/03/do-you-know-an-arc-fault-detection-device-afdd-can-prevent-from-an-electrical-fire/

http://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/Arc_Fault_Detection_Devices_(AFDD)
 

ICC

Member
Location
FRANCE
And purpose and design.

A GFCI or GFP may be part of a combination unit as in a GFCI or GFP circuit breaker or they can be stand alone devices that only protect against line to ground faults and do nothing for line to line faults or simple circuit overloads.
Thank you. I f I understand well, it' like differential switchs or differential breakers...

Can I ask you why a person living in France cares one bit about what the NEC AFCI rules are?
Of course iwire.

I know the USA, and I like this country, among others..

I have to go, thank you :)

Best regards,

ICC-
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Would you sell a homeowner one of these for $1000, and tell him/her they'd never have an electrical fire Mr Iwire?



~RJ~
I was very clear what I would do. I will follow the code as required regardless of how I personally feel about it.

If the NFPA put AFCIs up for a vote I would vote no. But that is not how it works and no post on this forum, from intelligent, well documented ones the all the way down to the ludicrous ones will get AFCIs removed from the NEC. The posts on this forum do not carry the weight of money and fear that the AFCI makers can put forth.

Heck, a NEMA rep pointed stated on this forum that ECs could be sued for not installing AFCIs in Michigan where they are not required due to amendments. To me that simply shows the tactics the manufacturers turn to to sell their products.

How many AFCIs where sold last year? What is the profit on each?

And you think the manufacturers will let that go over some rants on an Internet forum? Seriously, AFCIs are here to stay until the manufacturers come up with the next gizmo that is at least as profitable. You know the price will not come down.

And one last thing, the least you could have done is used the right brand extinguisher to make the lamp out of. :cool:

 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
...
From a legal standpoint, but it does not make it right. Everyone one of those folks have the power to ask questions and write to legislators. And it does not mean those who have power over laws should sit idle. Consider how many states, municipalities, ect have adopted the NEC without even questioning 210.12. Michigan and Indiana were the only ones that did in any detail. New Hamshire was looking into it, but I am not sure what side they took. ...
There were lots of states that took a look at this issue...in some cases the legal advice was that the unit of government is on shaky legal ground when they pass a code that is less stringent than a national consensus standard.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
A GFCI or GFP may be part of a combination unit as in a GFCI or GFP circuit breaker or they can be stand alone devices that only protect against line to ground faults and do nothing for line to line faults or simple circuit overloads.
I'm unaware of GFP that address circuit overloads Mr IWire
Well you did not read what I said.

May be part of a combination unit

Here is an example



http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdistribution/us/en/product-portfolio/circuit-breakers/residential-circuit-breakers/equipment-gfi/pages/equipment-gfi.aspx
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
I still have no idea of what you are asking. An overload is one of the things that an overcurrent protective device detects.
The way IWire posed it, or i took it, was that GF incorporates overload protection

It, in of itself, does not....

Overload and GF protection are two separate distinctions incorporated (or not, as the case may be) into the same device

~RJ~
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It's the same here, we have a different classification for faults. We never speak about arc, because arcs are always consequence of defautls.
Yet this thread is specifically about arc fault breakers which supposedly detect arcs. That tends to make the subject of this thread about arcs.



Never arcs like your vidéo, never.
As I said, the video is not a standard circuit. It was just an example of an arc.

And never false tripping with sensitive breakers, never.

To me that is not a believable statement.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
There were lots of states that took a look at this issue...in some cases the legal advice was that the unit of government is on shaky legal ground when they pass a code that is less stringent than a national consensus standard.
Yet the removal of fire sprinklers stands where? :blink::eek: I am not saying you are wrong, just that its backwards the way it is.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Not Included
Location
United States
Occupation
*
The posts on this forum do not carry the weight of money and fear that the AFCI makers can put forth.

So you are in the realm of conspiracy :D Good job :thumbsup: But seriously, I do agree. I believe there is a lot of power and cash involved in this.



And you think the manufacturers will let that go over some rants on an Internet forum? Seriously, AFCIs are here to stay until the manufacturers come up with the next gizmo that is at least as profitable. You know the price will not come down.

They might if more people read them or post their feelings on AFCIs. Every single person who speaks up is worth something.




Nice :cool::)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The way IWire posed it, or i took it, was that GF incorporates overload protection

It, in of itself, does not....

Overload and GF protection are two separate distinctions incorporated (or not, as the case may be) into the same device

~RJ~
I am not sure how my post was so tough to understand.

I was pointing out that GFCI and GFP are different things and either can be stand alone devices or part of a combination of protection in the form of a breaker with GFP or GFCI.

Presently the most common form of AFCI happens to be an AFCI breaker as it has only been recently that stand alone AFCI devices have been available.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
I was very clear what I would do. I will follow the code as required regardless of how I personally feel about it.
Compliance and complaint about any given electrical product are two separate issues Mr IWire.

I'd like to think most of us are compliant ,or make a good faith effort in our installs here , which is why we come here.

But you see, i like my trade ,and i'm cursed with scruples. I think you'll find there's many of my sort here, as well as the usual (if not high ratio) of FF/Sparks who have seen the forensic blame game first hand.

That said , i have a complaint , in fact i've had one for nearly 2 decades re; afci technology.

Fwiw, back then i was 'Mr. tin hat' ....

And yes, the Manufacturers are a phenomenally huge Goliath , but the evidence against them is mounting and our grass roots campaign has put substantial dents in their armor.

All litigant entities and journalist investigations aside, simple word of mouth is a powerful animal down in the 'trenches of the internets'

Ergo, I'll side with Mousieur Charles , the proverbial David of our trade







And one last thing, the least you could have done is used the right brand extinguisher to make the lamp out of. :cool:
I stand corrected on that point.....



~RJ~
 
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