AA-8000 rated aluminum (article 310)

[don_resqcapt19]

Service Point is defined here as "The point of connection between the facilities of
the serving utility and the premises wiring." Some utility can't just come along and redefine that its a definition in enforceable law.
Premises wiring is always after the meter, and never under exclusive control of the utility.

Where in the NEC does it say who can own a service lateral?
I most definitly own mine, I checked.

That is not correct. The location of the service point is specified by the utility as any point between their system and the building...premises wiring starts on the load side of the service point. For large services with customer owned transformers, the service point is often the load side of the high voltage fuses. The start of the premises wiring is determined only by the service point, and only your utility can tell you where your service point is.

For our utility for residential it is defined as the load end of the utility service drop, and for underground residential is it the load side of their service lateral. However, for commercial, the service point is the secondary terminals of the utility transformer that supplies the building. In these cases the building is supplied by overhead or underground service conductors.

Service Point.
The point of connection between the facilities of the serving utility and the premises wiring. (CMP-10)

Informational Note:
The service point can be described as the point of demarcation between where the serving utility ends and the premises wiring begins. The serving utility generally specifies the location of the service point based on the conditions of service.

Because of cost avoidance, more utilities are specifying the service point as the secondary side of their transformer.

 

[wwhitney]

Wayne I dont know when the last time you worked on a utility pole

Never.

was but they are under the exclusive control of an electric utility would you not consider the above Installation under the exclusive control of an electric utility ending at a point of service on the customers premises?

You cut off the part of the quote that said "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer. Anything meeting that description is the customer's, and so is on the customer side of the service point.

Agreed that the pole is the POCOs (I assume, anyway not the customer's), and so the wire and conduit on the pole seems like it has to be on the utility side of the service point. Maybe the service point is where the wire and conduit enter the ground, or at the edge of the lot. Regardless, I don't think PNM's use of the phrase "point of service" means the same as the NEC's "service point."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tortuga]

That is not correct. The location of the service point is specified by the utility

Nope not here anyways, service point is clearly specified by the NEC, perhaps yours is amended?
'premises wiring' is clearly defined covered under the NEC and OSHA 1910 Subpart S a service lateral from a pole to a house is part of the 'electric transmission or distribution installation' under covered under §1910.269 and the NESC. also the State of Oregon uses that interpretation, there is no way a service lateral is 'premises wiring'.

 

[wwhitney]

Nope not here anyways, service point is clearly specified by the NEC,

All the NEC does is specify that there is a service point somewhere between the utility's network and the service disconnect. It doesn't in any way tell you where that service point is in particular. That depends on local tradition and POCO policies.

there is no way a service lateral is 'premises wiring'.

That's true by definition (the NEC definition of "service lateral"). It is necessary to find out where the service point is to differentiate between underground service conductors and a service lateral.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tortuga]

Never.


You cut off the part of the quote that said "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer.

all that matters for NEC section 90.2(5)(a) is
"Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations .. Consist of service drops or service laterals"
You'd need to cite a code section proving otherwise.

Regardless, I don't think PNM's use of the phrase "point of service" means the same as the NEC's "service point."

Thats exactly what it means.

 

[wwhitney]

all that matters for NEC section is 90.2(5)(a) is
"Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations .. Consist of service drops or service laterals"

Right, which is why you have to determine where the service point is, to determine if you are talking about a "service lateral" or "underground service conductors." 90.2(B)(5)(a) is only excluding the former from NEC coverage.

As to determining the service point, see the definition you posted. It requires determining what the "facilities of the serving utility" are. Seems to me anything "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer is not a "facility of the serving utility."

Thats exactly what it means.

If they meant an NEC "service point" they would write "service point" and not use a different phrase.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tortuga]

Right, which is why you have to determine where the service point is,

The point where a Installation under the 'exclusive control of an electric utility' ends, is where 'premises wiring' begins. As long as a "Installation is under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations .. Consist of service drops or service laterals" is true then per 90.2(B)(5)(a) the NEC does not apply, and the NESC applies as well as different OSHA rules.

If they meant an NEC "service point" they would write "service point"

In my experience the meaning is the same

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Nope not here anyways, service point is clearly specified by the NEC, perhaps yours is amended?
'premises wiring' is clearly defined covered under the NEC and OSHA 1910 Subpart S a service lateral from a pole to a house is part of the 'electric transmission or distribution installation' under covered under §1910.269 and the NESC. also the State of Oregon uses that interpretation, there is no way a service lateral is 'premises wiring'.

But it is not specified in the NEC. The location of this point is set by the utility and the premises wiring starts on the load side of the location that the utility says is the service point.
There is no way that a service lateral is premises wiring, but service conductors underground are premises wiring. The location of the service point as defined by the utility determines which term applies.

 

[Nwood505]

The original state inspector told me that they have jurisdiction up to the weather head. It’s a proper pole that’s about 35’ tall with a transformer mounted on top.

 

[wwhitney]

The point where a Installation under the 'exclusive control of an electric utility' ends, is where 'premises wiring' begins.

Maybe. But anything that is "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer is definitely not under "exclusive control of an electric utility".

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Nwood505]

Maybe. But anything that is "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer is definitely not under "exclusive control of an electric utility".

Cheers, Wayne

If that’s the case then the wire I ran would fall under the New Mexico code and not NEC article 310.3(b)

 

[Nwood505]

Getting nuttier and nuttier.

 

[tortuga]

anything that is "designed, installed, owned, maintained, and paid for by" the customer is definitely not under "exclusive control of an electric utility".

Not legally no, they assume 'exclusive control' after its built demonstrated by sealing or tagging a meter, a service lateral falls under §1910.269 'Electrical power generation, transmission, and distribution' and not a premises wiring installation covered under 1910 Subpart S.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Not legally no, they assume 'exclusive control' after its built demonstrated by sealing or tagging a meter, a service lateral falls under §1910.269 'Electrical power generation, transmission, and distribution' and not a premises wiring installation covered under 1910 Subpart S.

But "underground service conductors" do not and are premises wiring...the only difference between those two is where the utility says the service point is.

 

[wwhitney]

Not legally no, they assume 'exclusive control' after its built demonstrated by sealing or tagging a meter
[/quoted]
No, per the quoted text, the customer still "owns" and "maintains" the conductors, which means they are not under "exclusive" control of the utility. At most it is joint control, the customer has to get POCO permission to make changes, but the customer has to make the changes themselves.

If the customer had to design and install the conductors, and then the utility assumed ownership and maintenance of them, and had the right to make changes without the customer's permission, that would be "exclusive" control of the utility.

Of course, this back and forth is only relevant to the OP if their POCO is PNM (sounds like it is), and if they are installing conductors under those provisions of PNM's Service Guide.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

If that’s the case then the wire I ran would fall under the New Mexico code and not NEC article 310.3(b)

Not following you. If several years after you install the wire, a fault develops, who's responsible for fixing it? The POCO or the customer?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Nwood505]

I feel like a pawn being played at this point. I know the state electric inspectors were all attending a seminar on the day I failed my inspection. I’ve also heard mention of a memo that they all received recently.
My supply houses are all exchanging their USE-2 triplex for the more expensive AA-8000 and in the past week there has been quite a few other contractors who have had there jobs stopped.

 

[jim dungar]

Premises wiring is always after the meter, and never under exclusive control of the utility.

So what happens with cold-sequence metering? What about multi-meter centers with main devices? The metering is clearly after the service disconnect which needs to be installed per the NEC. How many of these main devices does the utility allow full access to?

 

[electrofelon]

I feel like a pawn being played at this point. I know the state electric inspectors were all attending a seminar on the day I failed my inspection. I’ve also heard mention of a memo that they all received recently.
My supply houses are all exchanging their USE-2 triplex for the more expensive AA-8000 and in the past week there has been quite a few other contractors who have had there jobs stopped.

I dont know the history of that AA-8000 requirement in your area, but it seems like they have "suddenly" started enforcing it? Seems like they should have put people and supply houses on notice that they will be enforcing it at some future date.

 

[electrofelon]

Where in the NEC does it say who can own a service lateral?
I most definitly own mine, I checked.

Then its not a service lateral . Seems quite clear to me looking at the NEC definition of service lateral and service point that they are utility owned conductors.