Aarp

[Rewire]

You call around and I am the only one who will come out, I give my price upfront and you agree to it . I do the work you pay and after the crisis has passed you call around for cheaper quotes.

Buyer beware does not apply,I am not Wal- Mart I don't agree to match a lower price.

 

[Wireless36]

I already know how this is going to turn out but here goes anyway.

IMO AARP can be pretty far left but they represent people on fixed incomes that can be as low as $840 but no more than about $2000/mo.

Does it seem fair to charge someone making $11.54/hr your fee of
$533.33/hr?

Bear in mind that $840 is 42% of their total income and could mean the difference between hamburger and dog food for the rest of the month.

OK let's hear all about overhead etc.etc. but remember we're all going to be in their shoes sooner or later and possibly totally helpless.

I am all for helping people out, if they called me for a donation I probably would give one but they called for service. Should I work for cheap so that someone else can save money thus making me have to come on to others later on? I am not a plumber so I don't know if it was excessive or not, but the HO had the choice before the install to call the $300 installer there obviously was a value in this plumber. The value may have been that he was available when needed and ready to complete the job, that is a value that gets lost once it is completed.

 

[gardiner]

Personally, if I was the plumber involved in this I would be going after Discover myself, on the grounds they paid this off without getting a gag on the information No matter who was right in this and who was wrong a business name just got hit hard. There are always three sides to every story (with the truth being the third side) and this is as one sided as you can get.

 

[growler]

The story is more interesting to read the original article. It appears that it was some guy's fiancee that used his credit card to pay the plumber and then it was the guy that made a compliant against the charge.

I don't believe that story about Lowe's replacing the unit for $220 because it appears this happened in Woodlawn, NY. where the average price of a home is $550K and they normally don't use the cheapest plumbing fixtures on the market in a house of that price. This was probably the price to install the cheapest unit lowe's has in stock.

The price from the competition was only a phone estimate and may not be that accurate. If they wanted to prove something they should have called every plumbing contractor in the area and get an average price range and openly state the high and low prices. I think they called until they got the lowest price they could find and quoted that ( not the first contractor called)

Link to original story:

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/money/on_your_side_JA09_plumb_crazy.html

It's just my opinion but I think there have been doctors that have charged more than $840 for 90 minutes work. If he is going to compare doctors to plumbers he should give some prices from the medical profession. Also he could compare the number of successes for doctors as compaired to plumbers. Plumbers almost never kill anyone, you can't say that about doctors.

 

[R Bob]

The story is more interesting to read the original article. It appears that it was some guy's fiancee that used his credit card to pay the plumber and then it was the guy that made a compliant against the charge.

I don't believe that story about Lowe's replacing the unit for $220 because it appears this happened in Woodlawn, NY. where the average price of a home is $550K and they normally don't use the cheapest plumbing fixtures on the market in a house of that price. This was probably the price to install the cheapest unit lowe's has in stock.

The price from the competition was only a phone estimate and may not be that accurate. If they wanted to prove something they should have called every plumbing contractor in the area and get an average price range and openly state the high and low prices. I think they called until they got the lowest price they could find and quoted that ( not the first contractor called)

Link to original story:

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/money/on_your_side_JA09_plumb_crazy.html

It's just my opinion but I think there have been doctors that have charged more than $840 for 90 minutes work. If he is going to compare doctors to plumbers he should give some prices from the medical profession. Also he could compare the number of successes for doctors as compaired to plumbers. Plumbers almost never kill anyone, you can't say that about doctors.

Thanks for posting that link, it wasn't available online when I originally posted.
Everyone is really going to get pumped up now!

 

[Sparky555]

On reading the story it looks like the typical contractor ripoff story to gain AARP membership. I'm curious what they threatened Discover with to get the money.

I just bought a decent toilet for $198.00 plus tax, so no, you can't get a decent toilet installed with materials for $220...or $300 and change.

I have a friend who bought a toilet for the local big-boy to install...$600 for the installation 5 years ago. I think he said it took less than an hour. More than what I'd agree to pay, but he was happy and used their service again.

 

[George Stolz]

Personally, if I was the plumber involved in this I would be going after Discover myself, on the grounds they paid this off without getting a gag on the information No matter who was right in this and who was wrong a business name just got hit hard. There are always three sides to every story (with the truth being the third side) and this is as one sided as you can get.

I wonder if he can sue AARP and get his money back?

Wow. All I can say is, wow.

Edit to add: http://www.aarp.org/money/consumer/articles/negotiate_cheaper_price_on_anything.html

Wow.

And I bet, if he didn't get anywhere with the car dealer, he'd write an article slandering their bloodthirsty antics of sticking to their price, depriving him of his convertible.

 

[growler]

I wonder if he can sue AARP and get his money back?

Wow. All I can say is, wow.
http://

I wonder if Mr. Ron Burley has ever considered the fact that he make not be working for the cheapest possible amount to fill his position. He sounds like a middle age journalist and they normally make a bit more money than the young guys that are a little hungry.

Think he would be thrilled about a negotiation of his salary? What if his boss found a guy that said he would have been willing to work cheaper for the last five years so now the company wants all the extra money paid back.

"Yes, Mr. Burley it appears that we have been over charged for your services for these last few years and a contract means nothing so we want the money back. Thanks for the advice you have saved our company hundreds of thousands of dollars".:grin::grin:

 

[gardiner]

Right now I'd like to know who the real victim is in this. It sure was not the AARP or the customer for that matter. The Credit Card people ...maybe but just a write off and some good PR? Or every tradesman out there that gives a price accepts payment then has to deal with this or like situations. Once this gets out to more people you can believe it is goint to rear its head again and again.

From a consumers point of veiw I could order something done with all the bells and whistles I want, pay the contractor by credit card, call around find the best price for a stripped down version of what I got and then go after the contractor to bring the price in line.

If this gets out and something like this is bound too, it will greatly benifit the hacks and in turn destroy the business of many if not all the good contractors out there. In theroy credit card companies may start to back off when it comes to allowing themselves to be accepted by some contractors, for fear of payouts such as this to keep their name (remember they are fighting a very bad reputation at the moment). If you can't accept certain cards then there is a danger of not getting some business (some of which migth be with honourable people). This could have some very serious side effects.

 

[George Stolz]

"Yes, Mr. Burley it appears that we have been over charged for your services for these last few years and a contract means nothing so we want the money back. Thanks for the advice you have saved our company hundreds of thousands of dollars".:grin::grin:

LOL

I sent the following email this morning:

I have to say, I found your article regarding the upscale couple getting "shafted" by the plumber to be truly amazing. I work for an electrical contractor locally, and issue bids for electrical work to be done, sometimes on an emergency basis.

You have slandered a business for doing business. Apparently, the price was agreed upon up front, and then the boyfriend had buyer's remorse after the work was already completed. Unless couples-counseling was part of the contract to fix the toilet, it was none of the plumber's concern.

If they had Lowe's and fifteen other plumbers beating down their door to fix the problem for $20, then they should have had those people fix the problem.

I have made monetary mistakes in the past, and being an adult (albeit not a retired one), I take responsibility for those mistakes. Once, I allowed my ex-wife to purchase a vacuum cleaner for $2000, due to the salesmans hard-pressure technique. Once, I paid a well-driller $500 to "witch a well", which consists of walking around with a stick in his hand saying, "Yep, there's water here."

Was I upset after the fact? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes. Was I blindsided by a bill exceeding what I had agreed to after the fact? No - so I did what was honorable, and paid the sum I had (in my stupidity) agreed to.

To run down a tradesman, who is obviously blue collar, for charging (probably white-collar) people a weekend rate for an "emergency" weekend call, and utterly disregard the responsibility of the couple who bothered him in the first place to bolster your own ego (and column) is utterly reprehensible, in my opinion. I hope the plumber sues you and your organization for slander.

-George Stolz

His response:

George,

Thanks for writing. I always like to hear our reader's opinions on my columns.

I understand your argument. However, I still would disagree. The problem in this situation is that we pay tradespeople for two things.... their expertise, along with their work. In paying for their expertise, we trust them to give us an honest diagnosis and a fair price. In this case, that did not happen; the plumber said a "major rebuild" was necessary, which sounds like a huge job. However, he replaced only four parts costing less than $50 total and took only an hour and a half. His deceit was in the diagnosis, not in the work done. He overstated the size of the job in order to justify the inflated price. In other words, he lied. The plumber's actions are similar to false advertising or price gouging, and are a violation of civil codes governing trade work in many jurisdictions.

In my experience, most tradespeople are honorable and fair. In this case, that was not the case. As I mentioned in the story, even a fellow plumber said he'd have done the job for less than half what was charged.

Best regards,

Ron Burley

He's got a point - but then again, how much easier is it to justify a weekend rate with "it's a big job" than "since you interrupted Nascar, this is going to cost you double." ?

 

[PetrosA]

Just a few observations:

After reading the article, I'm still not sure where others are getting the idea that this was a weekend job. It wasn't stated as such in the article or email reply.

The red flag for me is that the plumber was:

1) Able to immediately price a job where it was known that the material cost was low and the labor minimal (this guy took waaaaay long to swap the guts out) at such a high rate.

2) Able to charge a card immediately (possibly using a card reader installed in the truck). Around here the only service businesses that do that are heater guys who may run the risk of never getting paid by certain customers and do it rather as a "credit check" beforehand.

I also find it interesting that this thread in many ways is dealing with the same situation as the thread about the inspector who makes up his own rules and cites by them, but the reaction of posters is radically different. If we all want to know the rules we're playing with when up against an inspector, doesn't it follow that our customers want to know, in at least a foggy way, what they can expect when hiring us? Fortunately, we have a legal system to fall back on with the inspector, but what does the customer have? There is no standard pricing schedule for our work, but there are estimates. The problem is that for a customer to get a second estimate can be a pretty intimidating affair and most certainly will mean treading in unknown territory and it's still going to be a judgment call.

In the last two years I had a CAT scan of my kidneys done twice. Once in an ER, the second as a scheduled outpatient. The ER one cost $4,200 (which included a bed and some wonderful narcotic painkillers) while the outpatient cost $5,500... Same five-minute procedure each time. I didn't have medical coverage for the ER scan and had to pay out-of-pocket. How am I as a layman supposed to judge those price differences or even the price itself? Heck, it was a five minute deal. It's as alien a world for me as swapping the guts of a toilet is to that lady and I'll bet the sense of immediacy was similar.

There's nothing wrong with a rate schedule - car dealers use them all the time and as long as their mechanics are good and fast, they make money. The difference is that if you need an alternator changed in a Ford, every dealer in the US should be quoting you a similar price. With trades, we don't have that luxury.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Just a few observations:

After reading the article, I'm still not sure where others are getting the idea that this was a weekend job. It wasn't stated as such in the article or email reply.

The red flag for me is that the plumber was:

1) Able to immediately price a job where it was known that the material cost was low and the labor minimal (this guy took waaaaay long to swap the guts out) at such a high rate.

2) Able to charge a card immediately (possibly using a card reader installed in the truck). Around here the only service businesses that do that are heater guys who may run the risk of never getting paid by certain customers and do it rather as a "credit check" beforehand.

There's nothing wrong with a rate schedule - car dealers use them all the time and as long as their mechanics are good and fast, they make money. The difference is that if you need an alternator changed in a Ford, every dealer in the US should be quoting you a similar price. With trades, we don't have that luxury.

The point I was making with it may have been after hours is, it doesn't say it wasn't. As far as the labor being minimal, what is minimal and what isn't. They say in the article that this job took 90 minutes from the time the price was presented. How much time did the tech have involved before the price was presented? This job has 3-4 hours involved all told.

Shouldn't a plumber be able to give a price for a toilet rebuild? When you usually use a credit card, do they charge the amount at the end of the day, or when you are standing there and have you sign a recept. Some people find it pretty unprofessional to not be able to run a credit card on the spot, and think it a security hazard to have you running around with their credit card number and information. I didn't see where in the article where it discussed the method for running the charge card.

 

[PetrosA]

The point I was making with it may have been after hours is, it doesn't say it wasn't. As far as the labor being minimal, what is minimal and what isn't. They say in the article that this job took 90 minutes from the time the price was presented. How much time did the tech have involved before the price was presented? This job has 3-4 hours involved all told.

Shouldn't a plumber be able to give a price for a toilet rebuild? When you usually use a credit card, do they charge the amount at the end of the day, or when you are standing there and have you sign a recept. Some people find it pretty unprofessional to not be able to run a credit card on the spot, and think it a security hazard to have you running around with their credit card number and information. I didn't see where in the article where it discussed the method for running the charge card.

Alright, but even with four hours total, we're looking at $200/hr to fix a toilet, resi. The town I work in also has a median home value over 500k and I am certain no trade is getting that much for residential service.

AFAIK, most companies in this area would be sending an invoice after the job is done, not running out to the truck and swiping, but that could be different in other parts of the country. I assumed that either the guy had a card reader on the truck or the office called and took the card info.

Again, I'm not saying that tradesmen shouldn't be making a fair profit at all. I think in resi work there's room for a fair price, and a discount price (ex. for people clearly in need) and obviously those prices won't be the same 7 days a week. Gouging on the other hand is wrong. It's easy to gouge though when you're the guy on the spot and you abuse scare tactics to make the deal.

 

[brantmacga]

Gouging on the other hand is wrong. It's easy to gouge though when you're the guy on the spot and you abuse scare tactics to make the deal.

If the plumber is charging the same price on that repair for everyone, no matter the circumstance (er, flat rate ??), he is not gouging.

He is charging what it takes to run a profitable business.

Instead of saying he's too high, why can't we believe everyone else is too low, mostly because they don't know any better or are too scared to raise their rates to a profitable level for fear of losing work.


All businesses have their own unique expenses, as well as their own unique level of service. Each has their own cost.

Its obvious the plumber actually knows his costs, and has decided he will operate a business that actually makes money; not one that just makes payroll, but one that is able to put money back in the bank.


:roll:

 

[George Stolz]

Well, I've invited the author, perhaps he can fill us in more on the story. I've heard a little more, but not enough to understand the scene. Stay tuned...

 

[PetrosA]

If the plumber is charging the same price on that repair for everyone, no matter the circumstance (er, flat rate ??), he is not gouging.

He is charging what it takes to run a profitable business.

Instead of saying he's too high, why can't we believe everyone else is too low, mostly because they don't know any better or are too scared to raise their rates to a profitable level for fear of losing work.


All businesses have their own unique expenses, as well as their own unique level of service. Each has their own cost.

Its obvious the plumber actually knows his costs, and has decided he will operate a business that actually makes money; not one that just makes payroll, but one that is able to put money back in the bank.


:roll:

That's an easy-out argument in my opinion and the same one that got our health care system to the point where they can charge me $5,500 for a five minute CAT scan without having to justify the price. So tell me your opinion about this scenario - the two largest ECs in an area decide on some flat rate prices, let's say $4,500 to install a typical 200A overhead service upgrade. By default, they can expect customers to consider their price as authoritative based on company size and reputation. Nine smaller but completely competent contractors come in between $1,500 and $2,200. Are the two larger companies using their leverage and gouging or just operating profitable businesses? I use that example because there was a situation like that here a few years back just so it's based in reality.

 

[bradleyelectric]

the 2 larger companies are trying to raise thier price for the service to a level that would put them at a profit level with businesses that investers would think attractive. You are correct in your thinking that they shouldn't think of themselves as other than dirtballs that should put thier dirty t shirts and jeans back on and forget about that vacation home.

 

[growler]

Gouging on the other hand is wrong. It's easy to gouge though when you're the guy on the spot and you abuse scare tactics to make the deal.

Gouging is not only wrong, in most places there are laws against it. That's the problem here, the plumber was not accused of gouging but only of having high prices. There is no law against having high prices so long as you charge everyone the same.

If they actually thought the plumbing contractor was doing something wrong then he should have been reported and investigated and this did not happen.

They really don't have a legal leg to stand on because the price was quoted up front and it was agreed to.

It's very hard for a plumbing or electrical contractor to get a customer over a barrel. In this area you can call at least a 100 electrical or plumbing contractors at any time and the prices will vary.

Just because some contractors charge 2 or even 3 times what others do does not make it gouging. The customer has options and if they choose not to use those options then that's their fault.

The price for the service may be to high in the mind of the customer but they have already used the service and can't return it.

When you buy a car you negotiate the price before you sign the papers and not after you have driven the car for six months.

If a person can not be responsible for their financial decisions then perhaps they should by assigned a guardian. Why didn't the lady just call her boy friend before agreeing to the price, she was useing his credit card? Probably why the price didn't matter to her.

If the guy has an issue with someone it should be his girl friend for throwing his money around like that. Man has to be an idiot for giving his girl friend a credit card anyway, let her pay her own bills, they are not married.

 

[glene77is]

Ive got a friend who is a plumber that says when the water is running people will pay anything. If I had it to do all over again, I would be a plumber or maybe an a/c contractor. Being an electrcal contractor is passe'. No leverage in this immediate gratification world.

Gunning,
When the water leaks, their feet get wet,
When the toilet blocks, ... ,
When the paint drips, ... ,

But,
When the electricity has a problem,
or they need a light added or switch changed,
the effect is usually not so evident or discomforting.
So people don't have an urgency in their mood.

Since I do various types of trades
(the economy being down)
I hear different responses like I mentioned.

One little electrical job, of 5 hours, though,
this grand (old) lady called me on the first hour
and the trip to make a temp fix. "It was not the job"
she said. So, I cut an hour for her.
Next thing I know,
this grand (old) lady has called me back for $1000
worth of work.

Play Ball, I say.!!!

 

[Sparky555]

One little electrical job, of 5 hours, though,
this grand (old) lady called me on the first hour
and the trip to make a temp fix. "It was not the job"
she said. So, I cut an hour for her.
Next thing I know,
this grand (old) lady has called me back for $1000
worth of work.

Play Ball, I say.!!!

Could you explain what this means. Sorry I can't understand it.