Aarp

[Rewire]

Did I do something to offend you that you're attacking me so hard? For the record, I don't do service calls after hours except for family and neighbors, mostly for free. I haven't attacked the plumber either. Do I think his service guy's misrepresentation of the situation got him into this situation? Yes.

I'm not a kid, I've been around the block and sometimes I even know what I'm talking about, so please afford me a little respect.

Don't take it personal remember this is a forum on the internet and anyone can be anything they want and claim anything they want protected by the cloak of anonymity.

 

[qcroanoke]

Don't take it personal remember this is a forum on the internet and anyone can be anything they want and claim anything they want protected by the cloak of anonymity.

I agree with that. I have seen some nasty,mean things posted on internet forums that
most likely would have never been posted if the person posting them had to identify themselves.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Don't take it personal remember this is a forum on the internet and anyone can be anything they want and claim anything they want protected by the cloak of anonymity.

just wandering, do you think I am anonymous on here?

 

[billsnuff]

i know who you are.........

i know who you are.........

:grin:
:grin:

 

[Rewire]

just wandering, do you think I am anonymous on here?

Short answer , Yes.

 

[Sparky555]

Well, I've invited the author, perhaps he can fill us in more on the story. I've heard a little more, but not enough to understand the scene. Stay tuned...

Interesting that the author is a no-show.

 

[growler]

Interesting that the author is a no-show.

Read post #50, George did get a reply form Ron Burley. He stands by his earlier statements.

 

[Sparky555]

Read post #50, George did get a reply form Ron Burley. He stands by his earlier statements.

I missed #50 and read #55.

 

[PetrosA]

He does not operate the business we are discussing as a construction company. That plumber learned a different business model than return the calls you feel like when you get back home after working all day and tell them it'll cost them $75/hr because that is what the plumber that he called to find out what he should be charging told him. His message and delivery is a lot different than most in his area of service. His marketing reaches many more people in his target market than that article ever will. He knows a lot more about how to run a residential service business than you ever will.

Ok, I agree that his model is what it is based on years of experience in his local market. OTOH, the guy charging $75/hr also probably knows what he's doing or what he needs to do to stay in business and make a profit. It's also true that we don't have all the details, including whether or not the owner encourages his employees to use some kind of intimidation on customers.

I doubt you offended anyone, but I don't see it as an attack;

Its quite obvious you don't quite know what you're talking about, and the other member was trying to point that out to you. Hopefully for your benefit.

However long you were in business or in the trade is irrelevant; I've learned that's not a good indicator of a person's trade or business knowledge.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, since that certainly wasn't my intent. Adding a statement containing "than you ever will" is usually a sign of a personal bash of some kind. That's all I was reacting to. I'd be fine with someone explaining their argument clearly. Then we could have a discussion and I might learn something, or vice versa.

That is the real question. Ron Burley seems to think that because the plumbling service tech said that this was a "major rebuild" that he misreprensented the problem. He even goes so far as to say he lied to the customer.

Here is an angle that most customers and journalist don't consider. He refers to the plumbing contractor as "trades people" when he should be referring to them as "business people" and "salespeople". He assumes that a service tech is nothing more than a plumber in uniform but forgets that he is also a trained salesperson. A trained salesperson will normally know just how far they can go without actually breaking the law.

I trained as an insurance agent many years ago and one of the things that was taught was the difference between giving an impression about something and actually lying . Lying to people is against the law and will get a license taken but giving a person an impression without lying is just good salesmanship.

The service tech (salesperson) told the customer that it was going to be a major rebuild of a toilet. This may give the customer the impression that it will involve at lot of work but is it really a lie? He did disassemble the toilet and replace parts and then reassemble the unit. I doubt if there is a formal definition of a major toilet rebuild in existance. This puts a statement into a gray area where it can give almost any impression.

If customers don't consider service people as sales people they are just being naive. They would probably prefer to deal with a plumber that's nothing more than a plumber but there is no law against a service company training their techs to sell.

If an appliance repair person comes to a home to repair a washer and tells the customer that replacing a tub gasket or something similar is a major proceedure it's a judgement call to decide if he is lying. This may in fact be considered a major repair, who decides?

This journalist ( Ron Burley ) thinks that he is in a position to make this judgment call. He is only useing what he thinks is correct to make this judgment. He gets one other price from another plumber ( probably Joe the plumber) and quotes that, but one other estimate is meaningless unless they have been to the job site and actually know everything that was involved.

Remember that Assured plumbing didn't back down and nothing was said about any charges being filed against the company and they didn't even refund any money so they sound pretty sure of their position.

Before calling someone or some business a bunch of crooks you need a little more than the word of the customer as to what was said and how it was said. This plumbing contractor may be useing nothing more than good sales techniques that are well within the law.

Half the businesses in America over inflate the actual value of the goods and services they sell and this is considered nothing more than good salesmanship. When they cross the line and actually start to lie to people thats' when they get into trouble.

It is my opinion that if some company is useing deceptive business practices or lying to customers that they should be reported to the proper authorities but not have stories written without proof or a court judgment.

You are still innocent in this country until proven guilty of something and I don't see any proof of wrong doing.

The only thing we know for sure is that the customer was unhappy with the price ( nothing new there) but the rest is all speculation based on the opinion of a journalist and a customer.

I would pretty much agree with most of what you say. In this country we have very little consumer protection. MSDS are only available for certain products, and no one follows any kind of ISO standards or other system, so we have no clue how good or bad most products or services are. That's why I have to disagree with your comment that short of lying, anything goes in sales. It goes, but only until customers catch on. Someone here wrote about a bridge rectifier that cost $15 or $80 something depending on where you buy it and he obviously isn't paying the higher price anymore

The reality of credit card purchases is that it's usually the first course of action to contest a charge through the card company, then some kind of omsbudsman, and finally court. Maybe because most charged amounts are relatively small? I don't know.

Sounds like he replaced almost everything in the toilet. That is a major rebuild. Sure, it is just a toilet. But the fact remains...He replaced every part [or almost ] in it. Seems major to me for that particular piece of equipment. And a skilled craftsman in his trade is a skilled craftsman. Whether it is a plumber, bricklayer, painter, electrician, insulation installer....regardless of how many tools it takes to do their job.

The word "major" is obviously pretty unclear. I have a $5000 espresso machine that would also cost about $900 to do a major rebuild on. If I went to check a two lamp ceiling fixture and saw that it needed two new sockets and told the customer it needed a "major rebuild" that would cost $500, would you respect me in the morning?

Perception really means a lot doesn't it? You think I'm offended. I just think you don't know what your talking about and try to offer a different view for you to see. I speak very frankly and directly. It doesn't mean I think I'm a better peson than you.

Perception is everything, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist I think that instead of being clear about what you want to say, you're less precise which is frustrating for me. I'm very willing to dialog stuff or I would have let this thread go by long ago, but I think this is the kind of topic where there isn't a cut and dry truth for everyone so it's good to talk about. If you see a problem with how I think of doing business, it's enough to describe what you see as wrong. I'll either agree or not, but I won't take it personally.

As far as some of my views on business go, I have a pretty well defined ethic to my approach. That doesn't mean that someone else's system is wrong or that mine is better, just that that's where I'm coming from and that for me it's next to impossible to separate business from my ethics. It's that system of ethics that makes me want to do code compliant work - not a fear of getting caught or being held liable. The most extreme example I can give of what I try hard not to be is this story - When I was running my cafe I had a lot of American customers, many of whom were missionaries from various US based churches. One time a guy came in who was doing missionary work in the Ukraine while working for his US employer. It turned out that his job was selling missiles to the Ukrainian air force. I personally can't think of a more inappropriate job for a Christian missionary but I know that a lot of people see no problem with that mix, and I understand that. It just doesn't fit my ethical code.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Short answer , Yes.

Would that be because I have not identified myself, because you don't think you can figure out how to pick up the phone and call me, or because I'm not standing in front of you?

 

[bradleyelectric]

OTOH, the guy charging $75/hr also probably knows what he's doing or what he needs to do to stay in business and make a profit. It's also true that we don't have all the details, including whether or not the owner encourages his employees to use some kind of intimidation on customers.

Through personal experience and business studies I have found in order to be consistently profitable and stay in business doing residential service you either need to marry someone with a very good benefit package including what you would plan on retiring with, or charge considerably more than $75/ billable hr. Based on the fact that no one was charged with any crime, I'd have to believe the techs have been trained in salesmanship. In sales you are taught to create a certain sense of urgency. It helps to close, not waste time and raise number of billable hours.

I would be more than happy to have someone show me how to be able to afford the things me father has atained after working for someone else in the manufacturing sector. So far noone has been able to do that while charging $75/hr. All the evidence is to the contrary. The only people that have told me they can make it while charging that are saying things like "They charge $85 so we should be able to do it for $75" or "I am doing well charging $75/hr, my wife's employer (or the employer I retired from) provides a good health insurance plan and my part time helper that I want to make a partner is a city firefighter" No one has shown me how to make the numbers work at $75/hr while running a business that is actually providing me with all the benefits my father enjoyed as an employee.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, since that certainly wasn't my intent. Adding a statement containing "than you ever will" is usually a sign of a personal bash of some kind. That's all I was reacting to. I'd be fine with someone explaining their argument clearly. Then we could have a discussion and I might learn something, or vice versa.

Maybe it was a sign of being to tired or not eating right. You are correct if we are still breathing anything is possible.

Perception is everything, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist I think that instead of being clear about what you want to say, you're less precise which is frustrating for me. I'm very willing to dialog stuff or I would have let this thread go by long ago, but I think this is the kind of topic where there isn't a cut and dry truth for everyone so it's good to talk about. If you see a problem with how I think of doing business, it's enough to describe what you see as wrong. I'll either agree or not, but I won't take it personally.

I tend to know exactly what I am saying, therefore I understand what I type while using few words. Quite possibly you and other people see it differently. I wouldn't want anyone to take what I post personally. I post my thoughts on how to run a business from personal experience and studies in hopes to plant a seed in someones head that doesn't see something I might. I see how to run a business crosses lines on the type of business, but don't think I would have much business posting on any forums about how to run a coffee shop other than referces to the basic business equation, marketing and customer service.

As far as some of my views on business go, I have a pretty well defined ethic to my approach. That doesn't mean that someone else's system is wrong or that mine is better, just that that's where I'm coming from and that for me it's next to impossible to separate business from my ethics. It's that system of ethics that makes me want to do code compliant work - not a fear of getting caught or being held liable. The most extreme example I can give of what I try hard not to be is this story - When I was running my cafe I had a lot of American customers, many of whom were missionaries from various US based churches. One time a guy came in who was doing missionary work in the Ukraine while working for his US employer. It turned out that his job was selling missiles to the Ukrainian air force. I personally can't think of a more inappropriate job for a Christian missionary but I know that a lot of people see no problem with that mix, and I understand that. It just doesn't fit my ethical code.

I'm not following you here. Didn't you say that your not a contractor? I also believe I run my business with a very high set of ethics. We have been told we are the best dressed people in the supply house, drive current model trucks, do only what needs to be done, do the work as if we are doing it in my house, always do code compliant work, have drop cloths, rags, cleaner, and 2 size vacum cleaners in the truck and use them, answer the phone when it rings, get back to people when they call, show up when we say we will, fix any problems we create, stand behind our warrenty, have very good relationships with suppliers and inspectors, and charge a fair price.

True that price is based on far more than $75/hr. Again I have not been shown any evidence of how to run a profitable business at that price. Most work I see done by other contractors is the cheapest fastest thing that can be done and they think they have to be in and out and off to the next job. That is not how I do business. I charge enough to feel I can do the job properly and am able to be flexible on my approach.

 

[PetrosA]

...

I'm not following you here. Didn't you say that your not a contractor? I also believe I run my business with a very high set of ethics. We have been told we are the best dressed people in the supply house, drive current model trucks, do only what needs to be done, do the work as if we are doing it in my house, always do code compliant work, have drop cloths, rags, cleaner, and 2 size vacum cleaners in the truck and use them, answer the phone when it rings, get back to people when they call, show up when we say we will, fix any problems we create, stand behind our warrenty, have very good relationships with suppliers and inspectors, and charge a fair price.

True that price is based on far more than $75/hr. Again I have not been shown any evidence of how to run a profitable business at that price. Most work I see done by other contractors is the cheapest fastest thing that can be done and they think they have to be in and out and off to the next job. That is not how I do business. I charge enough to feel I can do the job properly and am able to be flexible on my approach.

I could also have been oversensitive. I've gotten maybe 5 paychecks on time since January and it's taking it's toll I haven't run my own business since I cam back from Europe in 2006. There were too many other things to deal with without getting into that. I'm not saying how a contractor should run his business, although as the son of an EC and the brother of the guy who's running the family business now, I also feel somewhat competent to make certain comments. Forty years around that kind of business and you pick some things up (note: I'm not working for my brother.)

From what you write, your company sounds like the kind of company I'd enjoy working for - not this sorry hack who just happens to be the third generation running the company. I could go on and on about the conditions there but no one wants to hear it, including me

$75/hr doesn't strike me as low based on what is happening in this area. I know a lot of contractors and they're all saying the same thing - the resi market won't tolerate more than about $75 here with an awful lot of really good guys doing top-notch work struggling to get $65/hr from very well-to-do customers and bidding way lower than $75 on large jobs (mind you I'm still referring to outside of Philadelphia). Maybe it's because of the volume of cheap labor from Lancaster County (their cost of living is way lower than ours) or maybe it's something else. I really don't know. Thanks for the reply.

 

[bradleyelectric]

$75/hr doesn't strike me as low based on what is happening in this area. I know a lot of contractors and they're all saying the same thing - the resi market won't tolerate more than about $75 here with an awful lot of really good guys doing top-notch work struggling to get $65/hr from very well-to-do customers and bidding way lower than $75 on large jobs (mind you I'm still referring to outside of Philadelphia). Maybe it's because of the volume of cheap labor from Lancaster County (their cost of living is way lower than ours) or maybe it's something else. I really don't know. Thanks for the reply.

When I am talking about pricing well over $75/hr I'm talking about residential service work. I don't get anywhere near $75 for commercial construction. What you are describing happening with your work is exactly why if you are going to be involved in residential service you need to be involved in salemanship and charge more than what the others in the area are. The fact that others are charging $65-$75/hr has no bearing on what it takes to run a profitable business nor what the market will bear. It does have a bearing on what someone that wants to be a typical contractor in the area charges.

The typical contractor tries to sell on price and everyone wants to try to drop thier price to get more work when work gets tight, and than can't pay the bills. Imagine what would happen to the business if when the phone rang you made the prospect start thinking of things other than the price. You'd end up being able to pay the bills even when the phone didn't ring as often. People that don't understand that fact will look at it and talk about how you are ripping people off. Truth is your just getting what you need to run a business that is considered profitable in the business world, which would mean after bills and salary including a real benefit package is paid the business would make a profit of around 16% of total revenue.

 

[PetrosA]

When I am talking about pricing well over $75/hr I'm talking about residential service work. I don't get anywhere near $75 for commercial construction. What you are describing happening with your work is exactly why if you are going to be involved in residential service you need to be involved in salemanship and charge more than what the others in the area are. The fact that others are charging $65-$75/hr has no bearing on what it takes to run a profitable business nor what the market will bear. It does have a bearing on what someone that wants to be a typical contractor in the area charges.

The typical contractor tries to sell on price and everyone wants to try to drop thier price to get more work when work gets tight, and than can't pay the bills. Imagine what would happen to the business if when the phone rang you made the prospect start thinking of things other than the price. You'd end up being able to pay the bills even when the phone didn't ring as often. People that don't understand that fact will look at it and talk about how you are ripping people off. Truth is your just getting what you need to run a business that is considered profitable in the business world, which would mean after bills and salary including a real benefit package is paid the business would make a profit of around 16% of total revenue.

Thank you for an excellent reply!

 

[emahler]

Looks like a PSI member. :wink:


Change the colors to blue and white and it would look like their own franchise.

Nexstar...they don't pull their prices out of thin air...

 

[brian john]

Boy do these arguments get twisted

It did not get twisted in my opinion. it is about what is a fair price.

A fair price is what two parties agree upon, as was the case in this plumbing thread.

My point was that if people can afford to pay $30,000/year in real estate taxes, they're making a decent living. What their houses are worth is less interesting, since that value is more volatile, as recent events have shown. I certainly didn't say that my area is on par with NYC, San Francisco or DC...

Not necessarily what you can afford to pay and what the state/county take from you are two different things.

 

[PetrosA]

...

Not necessarily what you can afford to pay and what the state/county take from you are two different things.

Whoa there! If you buy a house you should be aware of the tax burden on it, right? The only situation where it's outside of a homeowner's control is when the local authorities/schools reassess or change the rate drastically.

 

[Brian Oshman]

Discover did not eat the $640 difference on the charge, the contractor did. When a dispute is filed, it is up to the contractor to prove that the charges are legit and if they can't or don't have full documentation to back it up then the charge back goes through, the money is removed from the contractor/merchant's account and it is credited back to the customer.

This is why it is important to have all transactions fully documented and signed off on from quote agreement to completion. With this in place the customer will have nothing to stand on and the card bank must honor the charge and deny the charge back. Contracts are legal and binding. What it appears is that the $640 dollars was not worth going back after since the amount of time to do so is so much more than just sucking it up.

Something doesn't sound right about this whole scenario but we don't have all of the details so we will probably never know.

To be honest, $840 dollars is excessive to change out the guts even if it was on the weekend. It is not a hard job. Could have set a whole new toilet with pressure assist for that and still pocketed $500 but the bottom line is that the price was agreed upon before the work started and that is where this story and the ultimate outcome is wrong.

These affluent markets in this area are tough. They want to pay you $25 bucks and buy you a couple slices of pizza to do it. I stay out of NY for these reasons as it always turns into prying their hands open after the fact to get paid. They got rich by being shrewed and have that attitude that what we do is not worth anything. If that is the case then why are you not doing it yourself then?

 

[growler]

To be honest, $840 dollars is excessive to change out the guts even if it was on the weekend. It is not a hard job.

The fact that it's not a hard job has nothing to do with it. On an emergency service call techs often do things so simple a monkey should be able to do it but they still have to charge for the service.

If there are two men on a truck because they think they may need to change out the unit or do more extensive work and they spend an hour in traffic each way and two hours on the job then we have 8 man hours to account for and that only around $100 an hour.

An emergency service call doesn't consist of a customer calling up and telling you to come out and rebuild the toilet. An emergency service call goes like this, customer calls and says we have water all over the bathroom floor, how soon can you get here. Now "joe the plumber" could go to Lowe's and buy the parts to rebuild a toilet and go out there in his pick-up for a pretty cheap price. Now if joe is right and all that's need is a toilet rebuild he works a couple of hours and makes a $100 in cash and everyone is happy. Total job cost $150.00, parts & labor.

Here is where the job cost comes in for a simple job. When a customer says they have water all over the bathroom floor it doesn't have to be a toilet rebuild that's needed. It can be a pipe that leaking and just waiting to burst ( I have seen this and I'm not a plumber). The real plumbing contractor has to be able to show up with enough men and material and the skills needed to fix the problem no matter what it turns out to be.

You can't spend all that money on labor, truck and stock and then go out and if the problem is difficult then tell them to call a real plumber. When you do emergency service calls you have to show being able to handle the problem no matter how difficult.

For eveyone that thinks this is an easy job I'll tell you a true story of just how easy it is. A lady about 10 miles north of here decides to rebuilt all the toilets in her house about 4 years ago. She has three bathrooms and had no trouble at all rebuilding the first two, it is an easy job. . When she starts to shut off the valve for the third toilet the copper pipe breaks off in her hand, behind the shut off valve ( I would guess it's a poor solder joint) . The one thing she doesn't know how to do is shut off the water to the house, the water is running and she is scared, she goes to the neighbor and he tries to help but he can't find the shut off in the house because it's buried in the ceiling and they don't know to go to the water meter. They call a plumbing contractor and he tells them to shut water off at the water meter but they don't know or can't find the shut off. They call the local fire department and they send a guy out to shut the water off. Takes about 10 minutes. The water has been running in an upstairs bathroom for over an hour right out in the floor. Guess how much water comes out of a 1/2 pipe in an hour? You are right, it's a lot, house flooded.

Now we have hardwood floors that need work, carpet ruined, ruined drywall, and even I get in on the action because yes even an electrician is now needed.

It was a very simple job and I have no idea how many thousands of dollars it ended up costing. Even without the cost that place was a mess.

If there is a toilet rebuilding service in the area I'm sure the job could be done much cheaper but the customer is paying not for a toilet rebuilding service but for a Full Service Plumbing Contractor to come out an diagnose and repair the problem no matter what it turns out to be so it makes no difference how easy the job is. It could have been something really bad. Pipe leaking in walls or something.

People can get switches, receptacles and fixtures changed out very cheaply but if they call an electrician for an emergency service call they are not paying for a switch changer. They are paying to have a problem taken care of no matter how difficult. :smile::smile::smile:

 

[aline]

I had carpel tunnel surgery done on both my wrists.
When I went in for the surgery the doctor told me it would take him about 45 minutes to do the surgery. He was doing several of these that day.

The bill from the doctor was $4,500 for the surgery.
This was his bill only and only included his labor. The materials used were billed by the hospital. That's $4,500 for 45 minutes.

I also received bills from the hospital for the use of the opertating room and recovery room. I also received a bill from the anesthesiologist.

All total the costs were around $10,000 for this.
I was only there for a few hours total.

Imagine if they had to come out to my house to do the work.