Adding a Ground Rod to a water Pipe Grounded System

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overloader

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Gentlemen:
Electric service customer needs to have a ground rod added to residence with existing cold water pipe ground. Water pipe entry is back to back fittings, couplings, and gate valve on street side of meter. There is exactly one inch of pipe clear for the grounding clamp. That's where it is. Customer (me..retired electrical engineer) will be hiring an electrician to install grounding rods. If there were room on the cold water pipe for a second clamp I assume the electrician would be running a new ground wire from the second clamp on the pipe out to the ground rod...job done. Since there is no room for another pipe clamp I assume 1: The existing connection at the neutral block will be removed. 2: A ground wire from a new pipe clamp would be lengthened to bond to the ground rod, and when the ground wire reaches the rod it would make a right turn back to the neutral block. Does this make sense? It would be much easier to just put in the ground rod and run its ground wire to another spot on the neutral block. I have never seen this done on any forum, so I assume that a neutral block is NOT a bonding point, and a code violation if used as such. I would like to know how to hire an electrician who is mature enough to permit a customer to examine the installation. My concern is insurance collection after a possible lightning strike. In my neck of the woods the building inspectors are for all purposes political appointees and I consider them unreliable. That's why I want to do my own inspection. Is this the place to get advise on this matter?
 
Since this is asking a technical question, is not a DIY situation and is not discussing liability for an existing situation, I am allowing the post .
 
I am sorry but I am getting lost in your description.

Are you asking if one can run a ground/GEC/bonding jumper from a water pipe to ground rods?

If so, yes.

Assuming say a 200A panel, #4 from panel to water pipe. Must attach within the first 5’ of where pipe enters building. #6 from water pipe, within same 5’ area, to rods.

NEC References are 250.53, 250.66, and 250.68
 
I think the OP has two questions.
1. Whether it is allowed to tap the GEC before it hits the water pipe instead of connecting the bonding jumper to a second clamp on the pipe or running a continuous GEC through the clamp to the first ground rod. I say yes.
2. Whether a second independent GEC or bonding jumper can be run from the combined ground/neutral block at the main panel directly to the ground rods. I say this is also OK.
 
GoldDigger said:
I think the OP has two questions.
1. Whether it is allowed to tap the GEC before it hits the water pipe instead of connecting the bonding jumper to a second clamp on the pipe or running a continuous GEC through the clamp to the first ground rod. I say yes.
2. Whether a second independent GEC or bonding jumper can be run from the combined ground/neutral block at the main panel directly to the ground rods. I say this is also OK.
Click to expand...

Cannot tap water pipe GEC to rods, strange but true-we just discussed this in another thread.

250.68 says bonding jumpers at other then the panel gotta be at water pipe, structural steel, or CEE.

Can run a continuous to pipe then rods, gotta be a #4 though. A jumper at pipe to rods only really needs a #6.

Can run a separate GEC just to rods also,#6.

Assuming 200A service conductors.
 
jumper said:
Cannot tap water pipe GEC to rods, strange but true-we just discussed this in another thread.

250.68 says bonding jumpers at other then the panel gotta be at water pipe, structural steel, or CEE.

Can run a continuous to pipe then rods, gotta be a #4 though. A jumper at pipe to rods only really needs a #6.

Can run a separate GEC just to rods also,#6.

Assuming 200A service conductors.
Click to expand...

Why can't you tap a GEC going to the water pipe? 250.68 says that it shall be permitted not that this is the only method.

250.68(C) Grounding Electrode Connections. Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to
be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s)
Click to expand...
 
infinity said:
Why can't you tap a GEC going to the water pipe? 250.68 says that it shall be permitted not that this is the only method.
Click to expand...

Gimme a few to put together response, just woke up.

I said it was legal in an earlier thread, but got called on it.

I did some research and ran some numbers, changed my mind.

Heck I hope I am wrong because I am a bit baffled myself.
 
GoldDigger said:
I think the OP has two questions.
1. Whether it is allowed to tap the GEC before it hits the water pipe instead of connecting the bonding jumper to a second clamp on the pipe or running a continuous GEC through the clamp to the first ground rod. I say yes.
2. Whether a second independent GEC or bonding jumper can be run from the combined ground/neutral block at the main panel directly to the ground rods. I say this is also OK.
Click to expand...

The customer...me...prefers solution #2, as it should be the least time and materials. Now I have to start locating an electrician who will treat me with respect and be willing to implement it. As this forum is axiomatically read mainly by professional electricians and contractors, it should be an ideal place to request a quote. If doing so is not within the forum guidelines, can I be directed to a forum/website that could beat Homeadvisor for the best outfit for the job?
 
overloader said:
The customer...me...prefers solution #2, as it should be the least time and materials.
Click to expand...
What we can't see, from this side of the computer screen, is the arrangement of your electrical service. If the "neutral block" is in the enclosure of the Service Disconnect where the Main Bonding Jumper is installed, then, yes, your #2 is an OK solution. If "Service Disconnect" and "Main Bonding Jumper" are unclear terms to you, then you need the advice of an electrician that can come to your home.

FYI, installing a ground rod in the vicinity of the electrical Service Entrance is a very common installation.
 
infinity said:
Why can't you tap a GEC going to the water pipe? 250.68 says that it shall be permitted not that this is the only method.
Click to expand...

where is it permitted to tap a grounding electrode conductor with a bonding conductor to a second electrode.

the sections says grounding electrodes are permitted to be bonded together in building a grounding electrode system

250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.

The connection of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system and associated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A) and (B).

250.50 shall be bonded together
 
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GoldDigger said:
I think the OP has two questions.
1. Whether it is allowed to tap the GEC before it hits the water pipe instead of connecting the bonding jumper to a second clamp on the pipe.
Click to expand...

250.50 requires the electrodes to be bonded together when building a grounding electrode system

250.68 gives permission to use certain building elements that can be used as a conductor to the bonding conductors that connect different electrode together

GoldDigger said:
I think the OP has two questions.
1. Whether it is allowed to............ or running a continuous GEC through the clamp to the first ground rod. I say yes.
Click to expand...

I would agree with that

GoldDigger said:
2. Whether a second independent GEC or bonding jumper can be run from the combined ground/neutral block at the main panel directly to the ground rods. I say this is also OK.
Click to expand...

i would agree with that
 
overloader said:
Gentlemen:
My concern is insurance collection after a possible lightning strike. In my neck of the woods the building inspectors are for all purposes political appointees and I consider them unreliable. That's why I want to do my own inspection. Is this the place to get advise on this matter?
Click to expand...



If your concern is compliance with the code in the event of an insurance claim after a lighting strike than you would be compliant to go directly from the neutral buss in your service panel to a ground rod with a 6AWG copper grounding electrode conductor

A more effective way of bonding the neutral to a ground rod ( lighting strike),if your utility allows and there is provision in you meter socket i go directly from the neutral outside to a ground rod.

Than you would most likely need to bond from that ground rod to a second ground rod driven no closer than six ft from the first ground rod
 
david said:
where is it permitted to tap a grounding electrode conductor with a bonding conductor to a second electrode?
Click to expand...
Since the NEC is deemed a "permissive" code, shouldn't that question be phrased, "where is it prohibited to tap a grounding electrode conductor with a bonding conductor to a second electrode?"

250.50 is pretty much the blanket statement that the Grounding Electrode System is bonded together. . . after that, for a structure with a single service and single service disconnect, the NEC is silent about connecting a second grounding electrode's bonding conductor to a Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC).

There are details, yes, like continuous GEC, accessibility, etc., but nothing prohibiting slipping a split bolt connector over an accessible point on the GEC and connecting a bond from a second grounding electrode (in the OP's case, a ground rod).
 
al hildenbrand said:
Since the NEC is deemed a "permissive" code, shouldn't that question be phrased, "where is it prohibited to tap a grounding electrode conductor with a bonding conductor to a second electrode?"

250.50 is pretty much the blanket statement that the Grounding Electrode System is bonded together. . . after that, for a structure with a single service and single service disconnect, the NEC is silent about connecting a second grounding electrode's bonding conductor to a Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC).

There are details, yes, like continuous GEC, accessibility, etc., but nothing prohibiting slipping a split bolt connector over an accessible point on the GEC and connecting a bond from a second grounding electrode (in the OP's case, a ground rod).
Click to expand...

I hope you are correct because that is what I said in an earlier thread.

Then David brought in his position in that thread.

I searched, ran scenarios, did some math, and basically confused myself and relented.
 
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

If the NEC is as permissive as you say I can through anything metal in the ground except Alum, gas pipe or things prohibited and call it a grounding electrode

Taking all the sections together these section state when building a grounding electrode system the bonding jumpers shall be connected from one grounding electrode to another grounding electrode the connection of the bonding jumper to comply with 250.70

And then there is permission to connect the grounding electrode conductor to one of the grounding electrodes you used to build the grounding electrode system with, as long as you do not create a week link in the chain paying attention to sizes of bonding jumpers 250.66

You can build(bonding Jumpers) one or more grounding electrode systems connected with a grounding electrode conductor to the service neutral

Or you can connect each and every present required electrode individually with a grounding electrode conductor

“The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C)”.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

250.53(C) Bonding Jumper. The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, and shall be connected in the manner specified in 250.70.

250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes.

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation

(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C).

(2) Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be run to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually
.
(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process. The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar. Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A)
 
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Not sure if your referring to 250.58 Common Grounding Electrode.

or 250.64 (D) (1) tapping a grounding electrode conductor with another grounding electrode conductor,.

not tapping a grounding electrode conductor with a grounding electrode system bonding jumper
 
al hildenbrand said:
Since the NEC is deemed a "permissive" code, shouldn't that question be phrased, "where is it prohibited to tap a grounding electrode conductor with a bonding conductor to a second electrode?"

250.50 is pretty much the blanket statement that the Grounding Electrode System is bonded together. . . after that, for a structure with a single service and single service disconnect, the NEC is silent about connecting a second grounding electrode's bonding conductor to a Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC).

There are details, yes, like continuous GEC, accessibility, etc., but nothing prohibiting slipping a split bolt connector over an accessible point on the GEC and connecting a bond from a second grounding electrode (in the OP's case, a ground rod).
Click to expand...

In relationship to building a grounding electrode system

You are permitted to build it in the way the section of the code lays it out and in so doing be compliant with the NEC,

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

You are correct that there is nothing prohibiting you from utilizing a 8 ft length of ¾ in copper water tubing placing it on top of your soil in your back yard or in the earth adding a bond to your service neutral

But doing what is not prohibited does nothing in a accomplishing what is permitted, in working towards compliance in building a NEC grounding electrode system
 
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