wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Adding a Ground Rod to a water Pipe Grounded System
- Thread starter overloader
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I like short answers.:thumbsup:
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
That is not my interpretation at all your flipping it back words
The section is about what a grounding electrode conductor can connect to and it is being brought into the discussion because it is the one any only time the code mentions a way to connect a grounding electrode conductor to the grounding electrode systems bonding jumpers that are from required electrodes because the are present
it specifically details how that needs to be done, if you choice to bond bonding jumpers from present grounding electrodes system to a grounding electrode conductor
Paraphrased:
"to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C)."
"to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually."
"The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar
. Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.)"
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Years past the code said things like do this this way but in lieu of do this
Gone the days of yesterday
in lieu of something is to replace it or substitute for it
"to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C)."
in lieu of
"to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually."
in lieu of one or two above
"The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar
. Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.)"
Gone the days of yesterday
in lieu of something is to replace it or substitute for it
"to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C)."
in lieu of
"to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually."
in lieu of one or two above
"The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar
. Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.)"
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
I find it very hard to follow your train of thought. Are you suggesting that the above text says that a bonding jumper has to go from electrode to electrode? I don't see it, connecting the other electrodes via bonding jumpers to the grounding electrode conductor meets the above text. The use of the word "where" in the above text is not locational, it has the meaning "in the situation that".
Cheers, Wayne
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I've been confused by the weight you have been giving to "required", until the above comment and a couple more that follow. Here in this forum, the views you are reading are solely from the NEC. Electrical Utilities have requirements, yes, however they are local to each Utility and sometimes local to only some offices in a single Utility. The views of this forum's members are given without respect to any local Electric Utility regulations.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
This exchange with Jumper is a case in point of how each of you is coming from two different regulatory environments, you, David, NEC + Electric Utility, Jumper, NEC only.
The NEC does not require a ground rod as a grounding electrode. Period.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Correct it does not,
The NEC does not require metal reinforcing in footer neither,
The NEC does require it to be incorporated into the grounding electrode system if some other authority requires it to be there or if a builder places it there by choice
The NEC requires that if it is present it shall be bonded.
The NEC also requires a ground rod if it is present shall be bonded.
Almost 40 % of our single family dwellings do not have a metal water grounding electrode systems.
All of our buildings supplied by the utility have ground rods that are present.
I never said the NEC requires a ground rod I am saying a ground rod that is required to be present is required to become part of the grounding electrode system. It does not mater by what authority it becomes present only that it is present
It cannot be a rod to supplement a water line that is not there. So a ground rod that is required to be present by a utility Authority is a required grounding electrode by the NEC is it not?
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
David, no law is gonna say we have to do anything a POCO says. POCO can just not supply power to the place.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I live in an area that has a large Amish Community we have several homes without any Electric Service at all, not sure how that answer the question about a ground rod that is present
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
You made the statement that no law could make you do what a Power Co regulates, I was one upping you and saying no law can make you install electric in your dwelling
the point i made in regards to the discussion how does what you said address a ground rod that is required to be present by an authority such as a utility
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Yes that is exactly what I am saying
when you have electrodes that are present and your building a grounding electrode system they are required to be bonded together. The conductor that accomplishes that task is a grounding electrode bonding jumper
A buss bar is one of three choices of the connection point the NEC permits a grounding electrode conductor to land.
The buss bar is the location the NEC permits bonding jumpers to land when bonding to the grounding electrode conductor
The other two options the NEC permits a grounding electrode to land is any grounding electrode that is part of the required grounding electrode system
Or
Land a grounding electrode conductor individually to a grounding electrode that is present and required to be bonded to the service grounded conductor
You are permitted to do 1, 2 or 3 in landing a grounding electrode conductor at a building
You are permitted to do 2 of the 3 when landing a grounding electrode conductors at a building
You are permitted to do all 3 when landing grounding electrode conductors at a building
There are sections in the code that except a portion of a building element, such as the first five ft of a metal water system tubing as a extension(conductor) of a grounding electrode that a grounding electrode conductor or grounding electrode bonding jumper can use to bond to the require grounding electrode
Mandatory Rules. Mandatory rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are specifically required or prohibited and are characterized by the use of the terms shall or shall not.
“Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3).”
If we cannot agree that 250.64 (F) is a mandatory Rule we will never agree
(B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be permitted or shall not be required.
If we cannot agree that 1,2,and 3 are permissive rules giving you your options to satisfy the mandatory rule given we will never agree
(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C).
(2) Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be run to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually.
(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process. The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar. Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A).
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
A utility is not an authority, it is just a business.
The only thing an a POCO can do is simply not supply power if the install does not meet their specs. An inspector has nothing to do with this.
Now if a POCO specs were included on EEs stamped drawings that were approved for the permit, then POCO specs would have to be met and inspection would include them.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
The utility is given regulatory authority here by the state
Any utility given authority by the state is more than a business
but that doesn't mater when the ground rods are present,, the same as building steel being present, the same as steel in a footer being present, they are at every building because the utility reg, state they must be there
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
But how does what happens in one state apply to the other forty nine?
You are confusing the crap out of me.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Is there anything in part 5 of this section that states a ground rod is to supplement a metal water pipe or the ground rod is being driven to supplement a metal water system electrode?
Is there any thing other than it being present stated?
III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding Electrode Conductor
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3/4) and, where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.
(b) Grounding electrodes of stainless steel and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (5/8 in.) in diameter, unless listed and not less than 12.70 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Other than using rods as the sole electrodes for a GES, common in resi and small commercial, why would anyone drive rods other than to supplement a water pipe electrode?
Steel, CEE, and rings do not require additional electrodes.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
it really doesn't mater why if its driven for any other reason than to supplement , than it is to be included #(5) correct?
(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure. The metal frame of the building or structure that is connected to the earth by any of the following method
Bonding the structural metal frame to one or more of the grounding electrodes as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) that comply with 250.56
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