Adding a Ground Rod to a water Pipe Grounded System

[david]

On a recent building the builder failed to coordinate with the electrician, not the first time, the bond to the footer was missed,

talking it over with the building department we allowed the builder to extend the foundation to include the required concrete encased electrode. The builder picked that option since its foundation had not been back filled at that time

Electrical inspectors are not stubborn we are nice

 

[al hildenbrand]

If they exist they are present if they are present the become inclusive of all it doesn’t mater if they are available

We're back to the Cartesian Circle.

 

[david]

We're back to the Cartesian Circle.

Do you agree that all includes everything in 1-7?
Do you agree if they exist they were installed on site?
Are there any other criteria other than the two above in 250.50?
And if so what would that be?

Edit If you walk onto a building site and every grounding electrode 1 through 8 was installed which ones could you exclude in determining what is required to be included in the grounding electrode system

 

[al hildenbrand]

Do you agree if they exist they were installed on site?

I'm staying with you scenarios, below, that I have commented on.

Two service being built today which set of ground rods are supplemental ground rods

If I have a service at a pump house / tool shed, plastic water lines, steel in the footer, two ground rods driven

On the other hand if I have a service at a pump house/ tool shed, no steel in the footer , metal water electrode in the ground ,two ground rods

Your "they exist if they are installed" argument is leading you to be saying, "Any Grounding Electrode is required to be installed if it is installed, even if the Grounding Electrode is not required by the NEC to be installed."

 

[al hildenbrand]

I'm staying with you scenarios, below, that I have commented on.

Your "they exist if they are installed" argument is leading you to be saying, "Any Grounding Electrode is required to be installed if it is installed, even if the Grounding Electrode is not required by the NEC to be installed."

I believe you are still arguing to require ground rods never to be connected to the GEC with a grounding electrode bonding conductor.

 

[david]

I believe you are still arguing to require ground rods never to be connected to the GEC with a grounding electrode bonding conductor.

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

Lets try this one last time.

When the Authority as defined in the NEC reviews construction documents or makes a site visit for the inspection, is looking for every grounding electrode listed in 250.52 (A)(1) through (A) (7) all present grounding electrodes in that list are to be included as required grounding electrodes period.

(1) Grounding electrode system electrode connection: 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation has a mandatory rule of how grounding electrode conductor must be connected when connecting that conductor to the portion of the grounding electrodes that are present, that where bonded together, to build a grounding electrode system.

(2)Grounding electrode individually connected : 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation has a mandatory rule of how a grounding electrode conductor must be connected when connecting that conductor to the portion of the grounding electrodes, that are present, and are not bonded, to any other grounding electrode, or any grounding electrode bonding jumper

If number 2 is the only mandated choice that you use, you duplicate that choice for all electrodes that are present listed in 250.50 (A) (1) through (A) (7)

(3) Grounding electrode bonding jumper connection: 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation has a mandatory rule of how grounding electrodes, that is present, and are connected to a grounding electrode(s) conductor by there bonding jumper (s) .

If ground rods are on this site or are required to be on this site with or without any metal water system grounding electrode present than they are present period.

After the grounding electrode system is built, and there are no other grounding electrodes present, in addition to the water system grounding electrode, the NEC stipulates that you need an electrode in addition to the grounding electrode system to supplement the water system grounding electrode.

250.53 (D) (2) and 250.53 (E) conductor size :The “additional” supplemental electrode is not part of the grounding electrode system and the grounding electrode( s) system rules do not apply to it. The connection rules to the electrical systems grounded conductor or metal systems bonded to the neutral / grounded conductor are located with in this section of the code

(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod, pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.
Exception: The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the interior metal water piping at any convenient point as covered in 250.52(A)(1), Exception.

 

[david]

In the real world what it comes down to is if a ground rod is bonded , for example to the service entrance conduit you are going to need to make sure it is a additional electrode, if it is tied into the grounding electrode system in a normal manner what difference does it make how it is defined. Connection rules are different for a supplemental electrode

i am not going to engage in any more debate ,I think ill give you the last comment on the subject

 

[david]

In the real world what it comes down to is if a ground rod is bonded , for example to the service entrance conduit you are going to need to make sure it is a additional electrode, if it is tied into the grounding electrode system in a normal manner what difference does it make how it is defined. Connection rules are different for a supplemental electrode

There is nothing in the NEC mandating you have to install a supplemental grounding electrode,

you could simply just add one more grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 to your grounding electrode installation

i am not going to engage in any more debate ,I think ill give you the last comment on the subject

.

 

[florida-sparkey]

OK its an old post but after reading all that, I'm giving my 2 cents. LOL

Irregardless of the other grounding electrodes used, let it be water pipe, or plate, or steel in footer and so on, So long as one of them is present, the addition of a rod for any reason whatsoever is supplementary to that required electrode.

Power co requirements do not change the NEC, its definitions, or its requirements. They may present a completely separate set of requirements that may need to be met if you want power, but this does not change the NEC definition of a supplemental rod to a required electrode.

The Op clearly wanted a supplementary ground rod in addition to the existing cold water. While its a good idea, there is no requirement to add this on to an existing home. Additionally there is no restriction as to how many supplemental rods one can add to a system.

 

[david]

OK its an old post but after reading all that, I'm giving my 2 cents. LOL

Irregardless of the other grounding electrodes used, let it be water pipe, or plate, or steel in footer and so on, So long as one of them is present, the addition of a rod for any reason whatsoever is supplementary to that required electrode.

Power co requirements do not change the NEC, its definitions, or its requirements. They may present a completely separate set of requirements that may need to be met if you want power, but this does not change the NEC definition of a supplemental rod to a required electrode.

The Op clearly wanted a supplementary ground rod in addition to the existing cold water. While its a good idea, there is no requirement to add this on to an existing home. Additionally there is no restriction as to how many supplemental rods one can add to a system.

I so badly wanted to let this thread die, but you just had to pull me back in


Would you happen to know what code cycle brought the concept of using one of the qualifying electrodes into the code as a supplemental electrode?

I see a few contradictions in the NEC to that statement

Could you explain how a ground rod electrode being used to qualify building steel as a grounding electrode under the 2008 NEC would be defined as supplemental

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure. The metal frame of the building or structure that is connected to the earth by any of the following methods:
(3) Bonding the structural metal frame to one or more of the grounding electrodes as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) that comply with 250.56
“(A) (5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes.”

 

[florida-sparkey]

I so badly wanted to let this thread die, but you just had to pull me back in


Would you happen to know what code cycle brought the concept of using one of the qualifying electrodes into the code as a supplemental electrode?

I see a few contradictions in the NEC to that statement

Could you explain how a ground rod electrode being used to qualify building steel as a grounding electrode under the 2008 NEC would be defined as supplemental

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure. The metal frame of the building or structure that is connected to the earth by any of the following methods:
(3) Bonding the structural metal frame to one or more of the grounding electrodes as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) that comply with 250.56
“(A) (5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes.”

PLEASE Stop changing the discussion to make your argument. It is counterproductive! This is why this simple post has over 80 replies and the OP is most likely lost to the wind wondering what is going on.

This IS NOT a steel building. There is nothing to be said there.

At your request- From 2008 NEC-

There IS water pipe "present" and its use is required by 250.50

"SUPPLEMENTAL electrode required" when using water. 250.53 (2)

SUPPLEMENTAL electrode can be bonded to a few locations including to the GEC 250.53 (2) as others have stated in this thread

"SUPPLEMENTAL electrode Bonding connection size" 250.53 (2) (E)

 

[david]

Irregardless of the other grounding electrodes used, let it be water pipe, or plate, or steel in footer and so on, So long as one of them is present, the addition of a rod for any reason whatsoever is supplementary to that required electrode.

Power co requirements do not change the NEC, its definitions, or its requirements. They may present a completely separate set of requirements that may need to be met if you want power, but this does not change the NEC definition of a supplemental rod to a required electrode.

PLEASE Stop changing the discussion to make your argument. It is counterproductive! This is why this simple post has over 80 replies and the OP is most likely lost to the wind wondering what is going on.

This IS NOT a steel building. There is nothing to be said there.

At your request- From 2008 NEC-

There IS water pipe "present" and its use is required by 250.50

"SUPPLEMENTAL electrode required" when using water. 250.53 (2)

SUPPLEMENTAL electrode can be bonded to a few locations including to the GEC 250.53 (2) as others have stated in this thread

"SUPPLEMENTAL electrode Bonding connection size" 250.53 (2) (E)

The OP question was answered earlier in this thread, unless you know something that I am not aware of on this site, and I have been a member here way back in the 90’s these discussion often lead to secondary discussion that may or may not become counterproductive.

The NEC does not define electrodes as supplemental. The NEC states that certain grounding electrodes are to be supplemented by an electrode such as a ground rod and that electrode is to be supplemented by an additional electrode such as a ground rod when the first electrode you used to supplement was not determined to have no more than 25 olms resistance.

You made a statement that once a qualifying electrode is present an additional electrode that is added must be defined as supplemental. An electrode is a supplemental when its placement was put there to supplement an electrode .

What did the NEC mean in 1984 by ground rods that where available?

What does the 2017 NEC mean by ground rods that are present.?

In 1984 it did not mater why ground rods where present at a service location if the electrode was available it was mandated to become part of the required grounding electrode system.

It is a misstatement in 2018 to say all ground rods present, that are additional to the min. standard of the code are supplemental.

It is agreeable to me after assessing the grounding electrode system an electrode could be determined to meet the classification of supplementing, for example a water system electrode, or supplementing a man made electrode that was undetermined to meet the 25 olm max.

 

[david]

If an exception was added to 250.50 than everything you guys are saying would hold true
250.50 Grounding Electrode System

For example if something was added like 250.50 exception 2


It shall be permissible to bond required supplemental electrodes as permitted in 250.53 (A) (2) and 250.53(D) (2)


Most likely a supplemental electrode would have to be defined to add such an exception

 

[al hildenbrand]

The word "available" was introduced in the NEC, with respect to Grounding Electrodes, back in the 1930s. This was in a milieu of Water Utility and Public push-back against connection of a Premises Wiring (System) to underground potable water piping systems. Effect of electricity on the metal water pipe and the water itself were at issue.

The NEC, in the Thirties, required connection to metallic underground water pipe, if available. This resulted in a May 26, 1941, official interpretation # 212 stating that in interior wiring "available" means "within the building served."

It is also highly instructive to note that Grounding Electrodes, in 1940, were 1) water pipe, 2) the metal frame of a building, if effectively grounded, 3) a continuous underground metallic gas piping system, 4) a local underground metallic piping system, metal well casing and the like. All of the "made electrodes", that is, rods, pipes, plates, rings, etc., were called "Artificial Electrodes". The Ufer, (concrete encased electrode) had not yet been entered into Code. The potable water underground metallic pipe was not required to be supplemented until the end of the 1940s.