Adding a Ground Rod to a water Pipe Grounded System

Status
Not open for further replies.
david said:
You are correct that there is nothing prohibiting you from utilizing a 8 ft length of ¾ in copper water tubing placing it on top of your soil in your back yard or in the earth adding a bond to your service neutral

But doing what is not prohibited does nothing in a accomplishing what is permitted, in working towards compliance in building a NEC grounding electrode system
Click to expand...
Your statement is an example of the Cartesian Circle . . .

The difficulty with your stance, I think, is present in that using a split bolt to splice two conductors together is specifically permitted when one is a "Common Grounding Electrode Conductor" and the other is a tap. Changing the NAME of the tap conductor from GEC to Bonding Jumper does not, in any manner, make the physical assembly of a split bolt splicing two conductors suddenly hazardous, or diminished of safety or in any manner of altered physical quality.

Another difficulty is that 2017 NEC 250.94(A)(4) & 250.94(A)(5) allow a #6 or larger copper conductor to bond to the GEC.

The very Definition (Article 100) of "Bonding Conductor or Jumper" cannot exclude a GEC as it is a "metal part".
 
al hildenbrand said:
Your statement is an example of the Cartesian Circle . . .
Click to expand...

Actually not so,
You have shall be bonded rules, with permissive statements of how to comply ,with in the article.

In other words you have choices layed out in the article of how to meet a shall be rule.

As long as the shall be rule is complied with in a way that is specifically permitted with in the section you will obtain compliance with the NEC section.

Because it uses permissive rules of compliance doesn’t than make it a free for all section and allow the user of the document to make up his/her own rules.

al hildenbrand said:
. . . The difficulty with your stance, I think, is present in that using a split bolt to splice two conductors together is specifically permitted when one is a "Common Grounding Electrode Conductor" and the other is a tap. Changing the NAME of the tap conductor from GEC to Bonding Jumper does not, in any manner, make the physical assembly of a split bolt splicing two conductors suddenly hazardous, or diminished of safety or in any manner of altered physical quality.
Click to expand...

Well let’s not change any names in this discussion , lets call them what they are in the section of the code in discussion.

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.

So we are dealing with grounding electrode conductors in 250.64 No mention of grounding electrode bonding jumpers.

(D) Service with Multiple Disconnecting Means Enclosures. Where a service consists of more than a single enclosure as permitted in 230.71(A), grounding electrode connections shall be made in accordance with (D)(1), (D)(2), or (D)(3).

(1) Grounding Electrode Conductor Tap:

Grounding Electrode Conductor Taps. Where the service is installed as permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 2, a common grounding electrode conductor and grounding electrode conductor taps shall be installed.

"Note 1. A tap conductor shall extend to the inside of each service disconnecting means enclosure. The grounding electrode conductor taps shall be sized in accordance with 250.66 for the largest conductor serving the individual enclosure."

And than the section takes us back to (1), (2), and (3)

(F) Installation to Electrode(s).

(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, are connected by bonding jumpers per 250.53(C).
(2) Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be run to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually.

al hildenbrand said:
Another difficulty is that 2017 NEC 250.94(A)(4) & 250.94(A)(5) allow a #6 or larger copper conductor to bond to the GEC.
The very Definition (Article 100) of "Bonding Conductor or Jumper" cannot exclude a GEC as it is a "metal part".
Click to expand...

Bonding Jumper.
A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity "between metal parts"

"required"

to be electrically connected

250.53(C) Bonding Jumper.

The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, and shall be connected in the manner specified in 250.70.

In building a grounding electrode system, what to metal parts (grounding electrodes) are

"required"

to be bonded together?

How much more clearer could it be than that?

al hildenbrand said:
Another difficulty is that 2017 NEC 250.94(A)(4) & 250.94(A)(5) allow a #6 or larger copper conductor to bond to the GEC.
Click to expand...

250.94 other systems has been in the code for as long as I can remember in one form or another.

When I first got in this trade an accessible section of the grounding electrode conductor had to be available at the exterior service entrance location for this permitted purpose.

This requirement in no way changes the discussion about taping a grounding electrode conductor with a grounding electrode bonding jumper, and including it in a permissible way of adding a grounding electrode to a buildings grounding electrode system.

250.94 Bonding for Other Systems…………….The intersystem bonding termination shall be one of the following:
(3) A bonding bar near the grounding electrode conductor. The bonding bar shall be connected to the grounding electrode conductor with a minimum 6 AWG copper conductor.
 
Last edited:
david said:
Common grounding electrode conductor
Click to expand...

Here is one also. I checked the cir mils, they add up correctly for the two taps to equal the common GEC in size.

attachment.php
 
I believe the question currently under discussion is whether a bonding jumper for an additional grounding electrode can be terminated at the grounding electrode conductor via a split bolt connector. My thoughts:

1) I see nothing in Article 250 Part III that would prohibit this.

2) I believe it is well established that while the grounding electrode conductor must be unspliced per 250.64(C), a bonding jumper has no such restriction. 250.53(C) requires bonding jumpers to comply with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), a list which explicitly excludes 250.64(C).

Thus as a thought experiment, it would be fine to install a bonding jumper between two grounding electrodes by connecting a separate conductor to each grounding electrode and then split bolting those two conductors together. Now if one of those grounding electrodes is connected to the grounding electrode conductor, go ahead and move that split bolt to the grounding electrode conductor along with the conductor connected to the other electrode (and eliminate the other conductor and its connection to the first grounding electrode). This new arrangement still bonds all the electrodes together, and it has fewer points of failure.

If you like, in the new arrangement, the portion of the grounding electrode conductor between the grounding electrode and the split bolt is doing double duty as a bonding jumper as well. Assuming it is sized properly for both roles, nothing in Article 250 Part III prohibits this.

Cheers, Wayne
 
2017 NEC 250.53(A)(2)(2)
"The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to . . . Grounding electrode conductor."
Tapatalk
 
Also, the object of "required", David, is "electrical conductivity", NOT bonding jumper, or connection.
Tapatalk
 
F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

Shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3)

what does shall be mean?

If you connect a grounding electrode conductor to a grounding electrode bonding jumper would that not mandate # (3)

(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm (1/4 in. × 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process. The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar. Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A).
 
jumper said:
If there’s a water pipe and you need to add rods or such, what else would you call the rods?
Click to expand...

Here the ground rod is required at every service by the utility,

we do not, since it is a required electrode call it a subliminal electrode since it is required to be in the soil and found to be " present" at every building that is built.

here are residential buildings are not required re-enforcing in a concrete footer

The OP stated he was adding the ground rod so his insurance company could not ding him with a non compliance violation in case he entered into a claim against his insurance company

I took from that statement, my remarks paraphrased ,that the rod was a required grounding electrode.

I am told that most other areas perhaps where he is from are required re- enforcing in the footer and that re-enforcing would have already sublimated any water pipe electrode
 
Last edited:
jumper said:
If there’s a water pipe and you need to add rods or such, what else would you call the rods?
Click to expand...

Notice 250.50 (5)
If the rod is present it is a required grounding electrode and the shall be bonded into the grounding electrode system mandate kicks in.

Here the ground rod is required regardless of the metal water pipe being present or not

our utilities regulations do not change for there rural customers verses the customers with city water systems. They just include in there regulations two ground rods are required for all there customers services


III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding Electrode Conductor
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.

All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3/4) and, where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.
(b) Grounding electrodes of stainless steel and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (5/8 in.) in diameter, unless listed and not less than 12.70 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter.
 
david said:
F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3).
Click to expand...
The three subitems of 250.64(F) are all permissive statements ("shall be permitted"); they impose no requirements. So the "shall" clause you quote is trivially satisfied by all installations.

Cheers, Wayne
 
So in my opinion what it comes down to, is it a required electrode that was not included in a required grounding electrode system when the building was built

Or is it required for the purpose of supplementing a metal water pipe electrode

The other possibility is it not required at all, since the Code is not a retroactive document
 
wwhitney said:
The three subitems of 250.64(F) are all permissive statements ("shall be permitted"); they impose no requirements. So the "shall" clause you quote is trivially satisfied by all installations.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

All installations satisfying the controlling rule in the section above, witch mandates only three choices of compliance when building a required grounding electrode system
 
david said:
So in my opinion what it comes down to, is it a required electrode that was not included in a required grounding electrode system when the building was built

Or is it required for the purpose of supplementing a metal water pipe electrode

The other possibility is it not required at all, since the Code is not a retroactive document
Click to expand...

OP just said he wanted to add the rods so he would feel all warm and fuzzy.:)

The reason is kinda not relevant IMO.

So, we have a water pipe electrode with a GEC attached.

Can we tap that GEC and run a bonding jumpers to some ground rods?

Forget adding any caveats please.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but it comes down to yes or no.
 
jumper said:
OP just said he wanted to add the rods so he would feel all warm and fuzzy.:)

The reason is kinda not relevant IMO.

So, we have a water pipe electrode with a GEC attached.

Can we tap that GEC and run a bonding jumpers to some ground rods?

Forget adding any caveats please.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but it comes down to yes or no.
Click to expand...

Lucky Luciano
was said to be asked “if your given the choice men break into your house you can save your wife and children, and you die or you can save your self, and let your wife and children die pick one"

He was said to have answered I don’t except my choice, I would kill them all
 
jumper said:
OP just said he wanted to add the rods so he would feel all warm and fuzzy.:)

The reason is kinda not relevant IMO.

So, we have a water pipe electrode with a GEC attached.

Can we tap that GEC and run a bonding jumpers to some ground rods?

Forget adding any caveats please.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but it comes down to yes or no.
Click to expand...

A Supplemental electrode for a water pipe can connect to just about to anything the service neutral is connected too

A ground rod that is deemed to be present becomes part of the mandate to bond it to the grounding electrode system or connect it to the neutral with a grounding electrode conductor
 
david said:
All installations satisfying the controlling rule in the section above, witch mandates only three choices of compliance when building a required grounding electrode system
Click to expand...
(2011) 250.64(F) mandates nothing, other than the sentence "The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it."

Your interpretation would mean that bonding jumpers could only go to busbars, as the only mention of bonding jumpers in 250.64(F) is the allowance to use busbars given in 250.64(F)(3).

Cheers, Wayne
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top