AFCI BREAKER PROBLEM - NEED CONFIRMATION.

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Cybatrex

Cybatrex

Member
Location
Florida
Florida now uses 2014 NEC which introduced a series of pain in the but situations with AFCI Breakers. Good luck when trying to find a 2 PULL CAFCI breaker.

Q: 2 - 20A 2P CAFCI breakers I installed are both not tripping with the test button when pressed. It seems odd that both of them are doing it. When the test button doesn’t work but the breaker trips during an ARC the breaker is defective, correct? If you have any suggestions that I can learn from, I’m all ears.
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Cybatrex

Cybatrex

Member
Location
Florida
cowboyjwc said:
Is the correct neutral going to them?
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Yes. I’m on phone with square D. They should trip when connected to the panel and the pig tail to the NEUTRAL BUS and ZERO load. None of them trip so I think they are all defective. It’s costing to much.


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T

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Cybatrex said:
Yes. I’m on phone with square D. They should trip when connected to the panel and the pig tail to the NEUTRAL BUS and ZERO load. None of them trip so I think they are all defective. It’s costing to much.


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This is a 120/240 system, correct? Not a 120/208 as you may find in larger apt buildings?
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Cybatrex said:
They should trip when connected to the panel and the pig tail to the NEUTRAL BUS and ZERO load. None of them trip so I think they are all defective.
Click to expand...
Yes. With the two-pole CAFCI installed in the energized panel, with the CAFCI breaker neutral pigtail landed on the panel neutral terminal bar, AND without any branch circuit conductors (hots or neutral) connected to the CAFCI breaker load terminals, the TEST button should trip the breaker when pressed. Period.

If the TEST button does not trip the CAFCI with no LOAD conductors connected, the breaker is a brick, a paper weight, but it is NOT a working CAFCI.

A simple truth, in the world of AFCIs is that the ONLY approved way to test the status of an AFCI is with the self-contained TEST button. There is no "tester" made for any of them, only "indicators" that are not UL recognized. So this simplifies the "testing" for approval.

As an aside, seeing that you are in a SqD QO panel, I'll do everything I can to avoid any AFCI except those by GE . . . but that is another story.
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
There is one way to handle these existing multiwire branch circuits (short of refeeding them as a pair of two-wire branch circuits). Add a GE suppanel and handle tie a pair of single pole CAFCIs. You see, GE is the only CAFCI that does not require the LOAD neutral to be connected to the load terminal of the breaker. The GE CAFCI is purely arc fault sensing without any ground fault sensing component.
 
Cybatrex

Cybatrex

Member
Location
Florida
al hildenbrand said:
There is one way to handle these existing multiwire branch circuits (short of refeeding them as a pair of two-wire branch circuits). Add a GE suppanel and handle tie a pair of single pole CAFCIs. You see, GE is the only CAFCI that does not require the LOAD neutral to be connected to the load terminal of the breaker. The GE CAFCI is purely arc fault sensing without any ground fault sensing component.
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I think you just about saved me from a tidle wave of issues. The sweat dripping off my brow as the home owner is screaming for me to get it done and done NOW!!!! I tried 6 breakers @$120 each and all the drywall is up and construction finishes. It’s a remodel for a high rise apartment.

I have a distinct feeling this is going to murder my bottom line


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R

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Cybatrex said:
It looks like I’m going to have to tear up drywall and create another circuit
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Do you mind telling us what SQ-D's explanation was?

Solid-state controls for 2-pole trip mechanisms would be foolish to use line-line voltage.
 
R

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Cybatrex said:
Yes. I’m on phone with square D. They should trip when connected to the panel and the pig tail to the NEUTRAL BUS and ZERO load..
Click to expand...

Yes, inspectors may demand demonstration of push-button resets, but not with HOT wire removed.

Why are you doing it without the hot wire attached?
 
R

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
texie said:
Looks like you have a single phase 120/208 panel fed from a 3 phase 208/120 service. One of the quirks of 2 pole GFCI and AFCI products.
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Will notify my local IAEI that inspectors should beware of this trick.

Passing 3rd party Megger testing should be required before accepting EC claims of AFCI defect.
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
ramsy said:
Why are you doing it without the hot wire attached?
Click to expand...

This is the divide and identify method of solving where the trouble is (or, if there is trouble.)

The OP starts out with the AFCI TEST button not tripping the AFCI. It must, as that is the only way the AFCI can be tested per UL instruction.

With the branch circuit conductors removed from the AFCI load terminals, and the AFCI correctly installed in an energized panel, the AFCI should turn on and trip when the TEST button is used. Such behavior shows that the AFCI itself is good. After this first step done, one starts analyzing the branch circuit for fault(s). Removal of the branch circuit conductors from the AFCI breaker load terminals does nothing more than guarantee there is no effect from something out on the branch circuit.

This is a troubleshooting method, only; not an AHJ approval method.
 
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