AFCI BREAKER PROBLEM - NEED CONFIRMATION.

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brantmacga said:
That. And i can’t remember the last time I worked on or bid an apartment complex that was 208Y/120. It’s not a popular setup in the south.
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Interesting. Here, the PoCo doesn't want to offer 120 / 240 three phase four wire delta if the can help it. Existing delta transformer banks are still supported, but a new transformer bank is limited to 208Y/120.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Interesting. Here, the PoCo doesn't want to offer 120 / 240 three phase four wire delta if the can help it. Existing delta transformer banks are still supported, but a new transformer bank is limited to 208Y/120.
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He may need to clarify, but I took it to mean three phase is not popular on apartment complexes and not that 208/120 isn't popular as a general rule.
 
wwhitney said:
I would think the limitation arises from the AFCI side of things (which is a black box)..
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If SQ-D can't get a 120Y/208 2Pole AFCI to pass UL 1699, and like Siemens & Eaton refuse Patent royalty fees for GE's AFCI process, then they fail.

Home centers in my area overstock GE 10-1 over any other brand AFCI.
If equipment must match breakers, GE load-centers may dominate residential markets.

GE R&D seems to have blown away its competition for now, and perhaps earned the reward.
 
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ramsy said:
If equipment must match breakers, GE load-centers may dominate residential markets.
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I thought we can only install manufactures listed breakers in their panels?
Otherwise we can use classified ones that are listed for use in such panels.
I know of no GE breakers listed for use in other panels like Siemens , Murray , SqD.....
Do you?
 
Cybatrex,

I apologize if its been mention prior..

Based on the panel picture, I see an insulated ground, and based on the installation in a high rise, i am assuming you used MC Cable?

If so look at 210.12 (A)(5). Maybe this will help.

Change the breakers to standard with a handle tie or use a 2p breaker and install Arc Fault receptacle or combo GFCI Arc fault receptacles depending on the location and load out to the circuit...

Joe Villani
 
Sierrasparky said:
I thought we can only install manufactures listed breakers in their panels?
Otherwise we can use classified ones that are listed for use in such panels.
I know of no GE breakers listed for use in other panels like Siemens , Murray , SqD.....
Do you?
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No. You describe it exactly how UL & other NRTL reps explain it at my local IAEI meetings, regardless of some inspectors signing off on GE AFCI's when EC's can't get other AFCI's to hold.
 
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ramsy said:
If SQ-D can't get a 120Y/208 2Pole AFCI to pass UL 1699, and like Siemens & Eaton refuse Patent royalty fees for GE's AFCI process, then they fail.

Home centers in my area overstock GE 10-1 over any other brand AFCI.
If equipment must match breakers, GE load-centers may dominate residential markets.

GE R&D seems to have blown away its competition for now, and perhaps earned the reward.
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You can't be serious! All GE did was remove the GF sensing part of the AFCI which in my opinion is the most important part. Their breakers are no better than a standard thermal magnetic breaker now.

Electrician's seem to love them to cover up poor wiring practices (grounded conductors mixed between circuits and bare EGC's touching the grounded side of receptacles).

Home Centers/Big Box Stores sell whatever they get the best price on. Just because they stock primarily GE in your area doesn't mean GE is taking over the market. I have not seen a new GE loadcenter installed in my area in probably close to 15 years.
 
What am I missing, if GE is the only120Y/208 2Pole AFCI that works, much less passes UL 1699 ?
 
I'm with you regarding 120/240 V services, but only GE makes it for 208V.

What am I missing, if GE is the only 120Y/208 2Pole AFCI on the market.

SQD 2Pole 240volt AFCI's explicitly exclude 208V in their catalog, Siemens & Eaton also apear to ignore MWBC's in this residential market.
 
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ramsy said:
What am I missing, if GE is the only120Y/208 2Pole AFCI that works, much less passes UL 1699 ?
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You are missing all the controversy in general that goes along with AFCI, then comes details on individual makes/models.;)

Even though they have been around for around 20 years, they are still a product that the makers still mostly are saying "trust us they work" instead of showing us they do what they claim they will do.
 
ramsy said:
Can you show me one?
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Not sure, I know a neutral is needed for control circuitry to work, but if you pass both hots and the neutral through a CT won't the fields cancel one another if there is no leakage outside the circuit? About has to, or else we likely wouldn't be permitted to run such a circuit in ferrous raceways.
 
I don't think GE came up the idea of removing the GF portion of their AFCI breakers so they would work on 208/120 systems. I think it was just a side affect. They removed it to save themselves $ and as a selling point for less tripping issues do to poor wiring. It also enabled they to have only 2 products (1p15, 1p20) to get listed and catalog. The other manufactures need 4 products (1p15, 1p20, 2p15, 2p20)

In reality I think the market for 2P AFCI breakers for use on 208/120 systems is limited. They are really only necessary to retrofit situations. For new construction the solution is to not use multi-wire circuits.

We used to use multi-wire circuits as much as possible for residential work (mostly high end projects). When the AFCI requirements came about we changed to not using any multi-wire circuits. Initially 2-pole AFCI's were not available then when they were the availability was very limited. I also don't want to deal with trouble shooting a multi-wire circuit that has intermittent tripping do to some appliance the customer is using. We changed from using 14/3 and 12/3 to using 12/2/2 and 14/2/2.

As a side note. I'm not to sold on GE being very innovative. When Combo AFCI's were first required GE did not have any. They sold Siemens AFCI's with a GE sticker. A few years back we needed 2P50 amp GFCI's for a commercial project. All the breakers we were supplied with were Eaton 2P50 GFCI's with GE stickers.
 
kwired said:
Not sure, I know a neutral is needed for control circuitry to work, but if you pass both hots and the neutral through a CT won't the fields cancel one another if there is no leakage outside the circuit? About has to, or else we likely wouldn't be permitted to run such a circuit in ferrous raceways.
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The OP needs an AFCI for MWBC's on 120Y/208 service. Can you find one?
OP Not discussing GFCI's.
 
curt swartz said:
As a side note. I'm not to sold on GE being very innovative. When Combo AFCI's were first required GE did not have any. They sold Siemens AFCI's with a GE sticker. A few years back we needed 2P50 amp GFCI's for a commercial project. All the breakers we were supplied with were Eaton 2P50 GFCI's with GE stickers.
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When it comes to the low voltage distribution equipment division, no, not for some time anyway. Probably a reason they sold that division off to ABB, they had greater interests in other divisions.
 
curt swartz said:
..I'm not to sold on GE being very innovative. When Combo AFCI's were first required GE did not have any. They sold Siemens AFCI's with a GE sticker. A few years back we needed 2P50 amp GFCI's for a commercial project. All the breakers we were supplied with were Eaton 2P50 GFCI's with GE stickers.
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Ok, I'll buy that. GE's low budget serendipity accidentally passed UL 1699 with an AFCI for 208v MWBC's.

Nevertheless, GE equipment stands to dominate this 120Y/208v residential market, if others don't start putting their stickers on GE's AFCI's.
 
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