AFCI Everthing!

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jmellc said:
...BTW, just how many publications does NFPA print now? How much would it cost a person to buy their whole collection for a library? I suspect they are in business to sell books at least as much as to prevent fires.
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Actually, they lose money on most of their standards. The NEC reltated sales fund most of the NFPA.
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I respect your opinion but if you have confidence in UL and receptacles are listed for backstabbing, I trust it is a safe and secure practice. After all, isn't that why UL exists? When you think about it, other than bolt ons, circuit breakers are connected to the buss much like a back stabbed wire is connected to the receptacle. Should all breakers be required to be bolt ons?
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Where have you been all these years? You have obviously not done much service work. I have seen UL labels on junk with reversed hot/neutral connections, grounds held by sheet metal screws, wiring boxes so tight they would not meet NEC specs. I have replaced hundreds of switches & receptacles burned up from backstabbing and every one of them had a UL label or stamp. UL exists to charge a fortune for its services.

Breakers have more surface area clamping to the buss than devices against a #14 wire. They are much more secure, but yes, they fail more often than QO snap ins or any bolt ins. I have replaced a number of panels with burned buss bars.
 
Speshulk said:
Laziness
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That is an easy occurence when installing devices in a box with a bare ground. It tends to go where it wants. I often have to go in with needle nose & push it further back after putting device in.

Would be OK with me for all NM to have insulated ground. I would rather see that as code than arc fault breakers.
 
jap said:
His opinion of the guy who installed a $5-$7 dollar breaker would probably change while he was standing in his driveway watching his $180,000.00 house burn down,

I doubt his ill thoughts would be directed at the electrician that refused to install a standard breaker in place of an Arc Fault.

You dont replace an arc fault breaker with a standard breaker just to make yourself look like an electrical hero.

At least I dont.

JAP>
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And you have seen how many houses burn down for not having arc fault breakers?
 
jmellc said:
And you have seen how many houses burn down for not having arc fault breakers?
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Here's my way of thinking, see if you can read between the lines.

If you've got an Arc Fault or even a GFI Tripping, most of the time, there is a reason for it.

Its not always because of an incompatible devices.

Ground Fault and Arc Fault tripping may be because of an actual Ground Fault or an Arc Fault, would'nt you agree?

If your too lazy to find out why its tripping and change it out to a standard breaker just because you think it's a fluke, the problem will eventually present itself by someone getting
shocked or something catcihing on fire.

JAP>
 
I apologize in advance for my sarcastic reply to your sarcastic question.
 
Maybe the reason that houses got along so well in the past without Arc Fault protection is because actual Electricians were the ones doing the installations that took pride in
thier work.

Not just a bunch of Rookies,Amateurs,Newbies,Harry Homeowners, Helpers, or whoever, that can't seem to push a receptacle into an outlet box or drive a staple without making a
neutral to ground connection and maybe they'll lighten up on the Arc Fault requirements.

What do you think?

I don't know.
 
jmellc said:
Where have you been all these years? You have obviously not done much service work. I have seen UL labels on junk with reversed hot/neutral connections, grounds held by sheet metal screws, wiring boxes so tight they would not meet NEC specs. I have replaced hundreds of switches & receptacles burned up from backstabbing and every one of them had a UL label or stamp. UL exists to charge a fortune for its services.

Breakers have more surface area clamping to the buss than devices against a #14 wire. They are much more secure, but yes, they fail more often than QO snap ins or any bolt ins. I have replaced a number of panels with burned buss bars.
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OK.....first of all, I've been in this trade for 30+ years. That clears that up. If we can't trust UL as the definitive source for quality, we might as well throw out the NEC also. Is it all about money and who pays who off to get this Chinese crap listed?
 
jmellc said:
Where have you been all these years? You have obviously not done much service work. I have seen UL labels on junk with reversed hot/neutral connections, grounds held by sheet metal screws, wiring boxes so tight they would not meet NEC specs. I have replaced hundreds of switches & receptacles burned up from backstabbing and every one of them had a UL label or stamp. UL exists to charge a fortune for its services.

Breakers have more surface area clamping to the buss than devices against a #14 wire. They are much more secure, but yes, they fail more often than QO snap ins or any bolt ins. I have replaced a number of panels with burned buss bars.
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Wow,,,,,, if you have replaced hundreds of burnt up receptacles and switches and replaced a number of panels with with burned buss
bars, maybe we should rethink the statement about needing an insulated ground wire as a code requirement instead of an Arc Fault Breakers.
 
jmellc said:
That is an easy occurence when installing devices in a box with a bare ground. It tends to go where it wants. I often have to go in with needle nose & push it further back after putting device in.

Would be OK with me for all NM to have insulated ground. I would rather see that as code than arc fault breakers.
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No. It goes where you put it. If you prebend your wires before you connect them to the receptacle, they tend to go where you originally bent them when you push the receptacle in.
 
Two comments on AFCIs from me - first, we should be able to flash updated arc definitions into existing breakers (at least the latest generations of AFCI will have some diagnostics built in) - second, the manufacturer who comes up with a panel with an integrated neutral bus for AFCI and GFI breakers will make a killing.
 
Are you talking about Arc Fault and Ground Faults with Plugon Neutral connections instead of the Pigtails? or something else?

I think Cutler Hammer already has Plugon Neutral GFI and Arc Fault Breakers.
 
jap said:
Are you talking about Arc Fault and Ground Faults with Plugon Neutral connections instead of the Pigtails? or something else?

I think Cutler Hammer already has Plugon Neutral GFI and Arc Fault Breakers.
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Exactly. If they do, I haven't seen them yet. I'll have to ask the next time I'm at my supply house.
 
PetrosA said:
Exactly. If they do, I haven't seen them yet. I'll have to ask the next time I'm at my supply house.
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They also flash a code to tell you what type of fault occurred and have a feature that you can go back and see what fault occurred even if the homeowner reset the breaker before you got there.
 
jap said:
They also flash a code to tell you what type of fault occurred and have a feature that you can go back and see what fault occurred even if the homeowner reset the breaker before you got there.
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I've heard of those. I still think AFCIs are bogus safety though and will never save as many lives as GFCIs.
 
AFCI

AFCI

If a breaker can prevent even one house fire it is worth the headaches. Besides most of the problems are not caused by the breaker but by equipment that is not meeting the standards set forth for the breakers. Some manufacturers of breakers have started to track products causing troubles with their breakers and report the products to the proper agencies. Most tripping can be taken care of with a good surge suppressor, if there is not a wiring error. How about the new fridges that can't be on GFCI's, if you trip a GFCI maybe you have a problem.
 
electriciansd said:
If a breaker can prevent even one house fire it is worth the headaches. ...
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So we should all be driving tanks so we don't get hurt when there is a traffic accident?

There has to be a reasonable economic cost benefit to any safety rule. I just don't see that for the AFCI. When you look at all of the numbers for the fires said to be of electrical origin and factor in the fact that 85% of the fires that are said to be of electrical origin occur in dwelling units that are at least 20 years old, you will find that even if the AFCI could do everything that the manufactures say that they can, there would be very few fires prevented.
 
If a(n) _______ can prevent just one _____________ caused by __________________, it is worth the cost.

Choose from below:
death
pregnancy
drowining
puppy
cookie
hug
kick in rear
war
laughter
tears
hope
love
insult
cancer

Every thing has a cost/benifit ratio. Eventually it is exceeded. The phrase is used to often and my eyes start to glaze over when I hear it.
 
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