AFCI Everthing!

[kwired]

Most owners only see dollar signs and either functioning or non function (as desired) equipment. They don't understand what it is that they may or may not be protected from. Standard circuit breakers have been around a long time, they ask " isn't that good enough protection?"


Your talking about someone changing a Standard Breaker out to an Arc Fault Breaker.

I'm talking about someone trying to change out an Arc Fault Breaker to a Standard Breaker.


If an Arc Fault is required and in place when I get there, then an Arc Fault Breaker is still going to be there when I leave.

If a Standard Breaker is in place and I dont make any changes that require it to be upgraded to an Arc Fault then the Standard Breaker will be there when I leave.

If a Standard Breaker is in place and I make changes to the circuit that now requires it to be an Arc Fault Circuit, then an Arc Fault Circuit Breaker will be there when I leave.

If the customer asks me to install a standard circuit breaker where I know an Arc Fault is required and I can't convince them that, that is what I am required to do....

Then I leave without doing anything and everything is the way it was before I got there.

JAP>

I thought I was talking about changing an AFCI to a standard breaker, but seems I don't know what my own thoughts are recently. If some handyman or hack electrician comes in and offers to make the "apparent problem" go away and for less $$$ he is a hero to the HO. At least initially, maybe not anymore if his house burns down one day and he finds out it was because of the relatively small amount of that one repair vs finding the real problem. This same kind of thing exists in many other trades or professions also. Someone is always undercutting someone else, they may be legitimate, they may be cutting corners, the customer is not necessarily trained to know the difference, and if he was, he likely doesn't need to hire that service in the first place, he can do it himself. Just simple facts of life.

If the people I worked for could'nt afford to pay me for the job as I am required to do it , I'd find a different customer base.

I don't understand why gas is so high either, but I dont thin it out to try and make it go further.

I agree, I generally do not put much emphasis in working for customers that only want cheap, and focus on ones that see me as a professional and expect me to do what is right, they may want a heads up on what something will cost, but that is understandable.

I am not convinced that the AFCI really prevents a fire under fire conditions. I have purposely shorted an AFCI ckt to trip the breaker. It still makes an arc when tripping the breaker. If dust or dry cloth is present, it can still catch fire.

I have heard so many "if just one child" arguments that I need a puke bucket always handy. How many people are endangered by old decrepit wiring they cannot afford to replace? I have scoped a number of jobs that didn't get done because the cost of AFCI breakers forced it above the strapped homeowner's ability to pay. So HO has to keep his really unsafe system that's been BIL'd for 40 years because he cannot pay for what is being forced on him in a fix up.

I am in the process now of finding/saving relatively good 2nd hand equipment to fix up one guy. Reusing in this way goes against everything I was ever taught but that is the only way I can now get his cost down to what he can pay. And that is with me not charging him for labor. I owe him some favors and will do his job for cost of materials & permit.

Thanks Big Brother. Where would we be without you?

I am not convinced AFCI does what the manufacturers claim it will do either. There are other things in code I don't necessarily agree with either. If I am being inspected, I have no choice but to follow code. If I am not being forced to do something I question, I still have to understand I am taking on a risk should some incident ever happen and someone finds my installation was not to current standards. I may consider taking that risk at times, but do not always do so without thinking hard about it. Every installation has its own set of conditions that contribute to the assessment of what gets done, even when you do follow codes. Problem is today's world of lawsuits, everyone wants to blame someone else for anything and everything no matter what, and expect big rewards if they find any wrong doing no matter what it may be. A fire may have started whether AFCI existed or not, but if it is not there when it should have been, you have already taken at least 10 steps toward being wrong instead of just one.

That reminds me of checking out regs for barn wiring & finding reference to type NMC cable. I called every supply house in town. They had never heard of it. I called Southwire. They had never heard of it. I should have written to NFPA and asked them why no one but them ever heard of it.

BTW, just how many publications does NFPA print now? How much would it cost a person to buy their whole collection for a library? I suspect they are in business to sell books at least as much as to prevent fires.

They are also in business to sell memberships. I get enough membership invitations in the mail to be able to heat my house if I would burn them in my fireplace, but they probably have a code somewhere that doesn't allow that.:lol:

I really like using NEC Plus, which requires a subscription, but ever since I subscribed to that the amount of mailings from them has increased quite a bit, and they are all pretty much just soliciting products or membership and no other business matters.

 

[PetrosA]

If a breaker can prevent even one house fire it is worth the headaches. Besides most of the problems are not caused by the breaker but by equipment that is not meeting the standards set forth for the breakers. Some manufacturers of breakers have started to track products causing troubles with their breakers and report the products to the proper agencies. Most tripping can be taken care of with a good surge suppressor, if there is not a wiring error. How about the new fridges that can't be on GFCI's, if you trip a GFCI maybe you have a problem.

If it were only a question of investing headaches... maybe. Data for Dec. 2012 indicates that construction started on 945,000 homes in that month. Assuming an average of 6 AFCI breakers per new home (that's probably too low, but anyway...) and an average cost of $36 per AFCI breaker, that's a total of over $206 million dollars spent on AFCI breakers in ONE MONTH - a product whose performance can't be benchmarked or proven since, if no fires started, you can't claim 100% effectiveness of the breaker, nor does every trip indicate a fire would have started if not for the breaker. At that rate, AFCI breakers are worth 2.5 BILLION dollars per year. Assuming families get out in time and no one gets hurt, do you really think that out of those newly constructed homes there would be enough fires to total over $2.5 billion dollars in damages per year?

 

[kwired]

If it were only a question of investing headaches... maybe. Data for Dec. 2012 indicates that construction started on 945,000 homes in that month. Assuming an average of 6 AFCI breakers per new home (that's probably too low, but anyway...) and an average cost of $36 per AFCI breaker, that's a total of over $206 million dollars spent on AFCI breakers in ONE MONTH - a product whose performance can't be benchmarked or proven since, if no fires started, you can't claim 100% effectiveness of the breaker, nor does every trip indicate a fire would have started if not for the breaker. At that rate, AFCI breakers are worth 2.5 BILLION dollars per year. Assuming families get out in time and no one gets hurt, do you really think that out of those newly constructed homes there would be enough fires to total over $2.5 billion dollars in damages per year?

Now lets look at the 6 x 36 = $216 added to the total cost of the home. Only about a tenth of a percent of the total cost of a $200,000 home, is that going to break the decision of whether or not one can afford to build such a home? How many other $36 items are in the home being sold by some industry? That still amounts to billions of dollars to some insustry.

If one life would be saved can you give us a price of what that was worth? Is some persons life monetarily worth a different amount than someone else?

Again I am not convinced AFCI's do what they claim they will do, but at same time have not been totally convinced they provide absolutely no protection at all over what a standard breaker does anyway. I think the concept is a great idea, but probably is not perfected yet, and possibly will never be "perfect". Time will be needed to actually produce valid evidence of what good these devices may or may not provide IMO.

Anything man made does have its shortcomings and everything man made will fail at some point.

 

[jmellc]

Here's my way of thinking, see if you can read between the lines.

If you've got an Arc Fault or even a GFI Tripping, most of the time, there is a reason for it.

Its not always because of an incompatible devices.

Ground Fault and Arc Fault tripping may be because of an actual Ground Fault or an Arc Fault, would'nt you agree?

If your too lazy to find out why its tripping and change it out to a standard breaker just because you think it's a fluke, the problem will eventually present itself by someone getting
shocked or something catcihing on fire.

JAP>

Meter showed all OK.
I found all possible loose splices.
I checked all open attic & crawl space for dug in staples & found none.
Still tripping AFCI, and it was a GE, the worst breaker currently on the market. A new AFCI stil tripped.

What do you suggest next, tearing open walls & ceilings to further check for dug in staples or scraped wire? Little chance of finding anything, customer pays several thousand dollars for an unfruitful search, then several hundred to patch and repaint walls & ceilings. Besides, that was the purpose of a rough in inspection, to catch any such damage later hidden.

Try that with one of your customers and report back here. I am certain you will be singing a different tune then.

P. S.

Don't call me lazy. I don't back stab. I pigtail my devices. I do a lot of my own patching around boxes if needed. I caulk all outdoor installs. Lazy people do none of these. My installs are probably far better than your's.

 

[jmellc]

Although everything above is true, if AFCI's were required before the building would pass inspection,

Although it would be a major nightmare and the possibility of having to dismantle the complete house or wiring system,

I could do it, as long as they paid me to do it.

Good luck finding someone stupid enough to pay for a wild goose chase like that. But if you are as altruistic as you make out, you would do it from the goodness of your heart and not charge for it.

 

[kwired]

Meter showed all OK.
I found all possible loose splices.
I checked all open attic & crawl space for dug in staples.
Still tripping AFCI, and it was a GE, the worst breaker currently on the market. A new AFCI stil tripped.

What do you suggest next, tearing open walls & ceilings to further check for dug in staples or scraped wire? Little chance of finding anything, customer pays several thousand dollars for an unfruitful search, then several hundred to patch and repaint walls & ceilings. Besides, that was the purpose of a rough in inspection, to catch any such damage later hidden.

Try that with one of your customers and report back here. I am certain you will be singing a different tune then.

Before tearing up walls, I would suggest at least bypassing sections of the circuit somehow to see if you can isolate where the problem may be. If there is a staple through a cable it may still be a good thing to find it whether you have any faith in the AFCI protecting from the possible consequences or not.

I have done same thing when locating a section of damaged cable that caused problems with non AFCI protected circuits, find out that trouble is between outlet C and outlet D - maybe you run a temporary bypass between outlets C and D to confirm things will work, then you plan on how you are going to fix or replace the problem area. Maybe you abandon the problem area because it would be more destructive to find the exact spot and just install a new cable via an alternate route or method. Now if you have gone through and found nothing - I know it can be frustrating. You also may not really know if you missed something or not.

 

[jmellc]

I thought I was talking about changing an AFCI to a standard breaker, but seems I don't know what my own thoughts are recently. If some handyman or hack electrician comes in and offers to make the "apparent problem" go away and for less $$$ he is a hero to the HO. At least initially, maybe not anymore if his house burns down one day and he finds out it was because of the relatively small amount of that one repair vs finding the real problem. This same kind of thing exists in many other trades or professions also. Someone is always undercutting someone else, they may be legitimate, they may be cutting corners, the customer is not necessarily trained to know the difference, and if he was, he likely doesn't need to hire that service in the first place, he can do it himself. Just simple facts of life.



I agree, I generally do not put much emphasis in working for customers that only want cheap, and focus on ones that see me as a professional and expect me to do what is right, they may want a heads up on what something will cost, but that is understandable.

I am not convinced AFCI does what the manufacturers claim it will do either. There are other things in code I don't necessarily agree with either. If I am being inspected, I have no choice but to follow code. If I am not being forced to do something I question, I still have to understand I am taking on a risk should some incident ever happen and someone finds my installation was not to current standards. I may consider taking that risk at times, but do not always do so without thinking hard about it. Every installation has its own set of conditions that contribute to the assessment of what gets done, even when you do follow codes. Problem is today's world of lawsuits, everyone wants to blame someone else for anything and everything no matter what, and expect big rewards if they find any wrong doing no matter what it may be. A fire may have started whether AFCI existed or not, but if it is not there when it should have been, you have already taken at least 10 steps toward being wrong instead of just one.



They are also in business to sell memberships. I get enough membership invitations in the mail to be able to heat my house if I would burn them in my fireplace, but they probably have a code somewhere that doesn't allow that.:lol:

I really like using NEC Plus, which requires a subscription, but ever since I subscribed to that the amount of mailings from them has increased quite a bit, and they are all pretty much just soliciting products or membership and no other business matters.

This reminds me of solicitors selling ads in various directories, either print or online. Each is better than any other, etc. The few I bought got me a lot of results. No jobs but lots of other solicitors called that they'd seen my listing and that I needed their services also. More advertisers calling to sell more advertising; just what I needed.

 

[jmellc]

Wow,,,,,, if you have replaced hundreds of burnt up receptacles and switches and replaced a number of panels with with burned buss
bars, maybe we should rethink the statement about needing an insulated ground wire as a code requirement instead of an Arc Fault Breakers.

This makes as much sense as anything else you have said, as in zip, zilch and zero.

I have replaced huge numbers of switches and receptacles because they were damaged by back stabbing. I have replaced a lot that were aged out too, but they were usually not burned & charred like the back stabbed ones. They could no longer grip a plug or the switch was worn out inside. The back stabbed devices would not effectively hold wiring in long term. Yes, some do OK if lightly loaded and/or not subject to vibration. Most that carry any real load will give trouble.

The insulated ground wire is another issue altogether. Simply makes it easier to install devices, being that ground screws are often very close to live ones and the wire bends every which way when device is pushed into the box. Also, insulated grounds would be easier and safer to guide around in a live panel.

 

[jmellc]

Before tearing up walls, I would suggest at least bypassing sections of the circuit somehow to see if you can isolate where the problem may be. If there is a staple through a cable it may still be a good thing to find it whether you have any faith in the AFCI protecting from the possible consequences or not.

I have done same thing when locating a section of damaged cable that caused problems with non AFCI protected circuits, find out that trouble is between outlet C and outlet D - maybe you run a temporary bypass between outlets C and D to confirm things will work, then you plan on how you are going to fix or replace the problem area. Maybe you abandon the problem area because it would be more destructive to find the exact spot and just install a new cable via an alternate route or method. Now if you have gone through and found nothing - I know it can be frustrating. You also may not really know if you missed something or not.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I did that too, as near as possible. Carried a drop cord around to other recepts on the ckt. All did the same trip.

 

[kwired]

This makes as much sense as anything else you have said, as in zip, zilch and zero.

I have replaced huge numbers of switches and receptacles because they were damaged by back stabbing. I have replaced a lot that were aged out too, but they were usually not burned & charred like the back stabbed ones. They could no longer grip a plug or the switch was worn out inside. The back stabbed devices would not effectively hold wiring in long term. Yes, some do OK if lightly loaded and/or not subject to vibration. Most that carry any real load will give trouble.

The insulated ground wire is another issue altogether. Simply makes it easier to install devices, being that ground screws are often very close to live ones and the wire bends every which way when device is pushed into the box. Also, insulated grounds would be easier and safer to guide around in a live panel.

Biggest culprits - portable heaters and air conditioners. Most everything else doesn't load the circuit long enough to be much of a problem, before things have a chance to cool down again. Even kitchen appliances with higher wattage ratings generally will cycle enough to still have little problems compared to heaters or air conditioners.

 

[jap]

Meter showed all OK.
I found all possible loose splices.
I checked all open attic & crawl space for dug in staples & found none.
Still tripping AFCI, and it was a GE, the worst breaker currently on the market. A new AFCI stil tripped.

What do you suggest next, My installs are probably far better than your's.

Have your customer call me and I'll go fix it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Biggest culprits - portable heaters and air conditioners. Most everything else doesn't load the circuit long enough to be much of a problem, before things have a chance to cool down again. Even kitchen appliances with higher wattage ratings generally will cycle enough to still have little problems compared to heaters or air conditioners.

But those types of faults are really high resistance connections or heat producing faults, the AFCIs are not designed or tested to detect that type of fault. In my opinion a poor connection is by far the most common type of fault and the AFCI cannot directly detect that type of fault.

 

[PetrosA]

Now lets look at the 6 x 36 = $216 added to the total cost of the home. Only about a tenth of a percent of the total cost of a $200,000 home, is that going to break the decision of whether or not one can afford to build such a home? How many other $36 items are in the home being sold by some industry? That still amounts to billions of dollars to some insustry.

If one life would be saved can you give us a price of what that was worth? Is some persons life monetarily worth a different amount than someone else?

Again I am not convinced AFCI's do what they claim they will do, but at same time have not been totally convinced they provide absolutely no protection at all over what a standard breaker does anyway. I think the concept is a great idea, but probably is not perfected yet, and possibly will never be "perfect". Time will be needed to actually produce valid evidence of what good these devices may or may not provide IMO.

Anything man made does have its shortcomings and everything man made will fail at some point.

My intent wasn't to put a price on saving a life - that's for the insurance adjuster to figure out. I was only pointing out that AFCIs cost more than headaches, especially nationwide (and that $216 is only for the breakers - not for additional time needed for installing or eventual troubleshooting). I think ultimately, GFI breakers would provide a similar level of protection to the premises wiring without the controversy that surround AFCI breakers. Many here talk about AFCIs as though they were a life safety device, but from what I read about them, their level of dependability and predictability is nowhere near what's required of a life safety device nor is there any method to independently verify their performance - something that should be required of any device designed to save people.

I don't know that time will provide evidence of AFCI effectiveness, since you can't prove that something would have happened without it. A fire MIGHT have been a possible outcome, but not necessarily.

 

[jmellc]

Biggest culprits - portable heaters and air conditioners. Most everything else doesn't load the circuit long enough to be much of a problem, before things have a chance to cool down again. Even kitchen appliances with higher wattage ratings generally will cycle enough to still have little problems compared to heaters or air conditioners.

Kitchen appliances will trip any beaker, or blow fuses. I did a service call this week where a microwave and toaster oven tripped a 20 amp minibreaker when used together. I had to replace with a 15 A fuse, as they were on #14 wire. Told them they had even less room for error now. I am giving them a price on redoing the kitchen and replacing the fuse box.

 

[kwired]

But those types of faults are really high resistance connections or heat producing faults, the AFCIs are not designed or tested to detect that type of fault. In my opinion a poor connection is by far the most common type of fault and the AFCI cannot directly detect that type of fault.

Kitchen appliances will trip any beaker, or blow fuses. I did a service call this week where a microwave and toaster oven tripped a 20 amp minibreaker when used together. I had to replace with a 15 A fuse, as they were on #14 wire. Told them they had even less room for error now. I am giving them a price on redoing the kitchen and replacing the fuse box.

I wasn't trying to say biggest culprit for tripping a breaker or an AFCI is heaters or air conditioners, I was trying to say these particular loads are biggest culprit I have seen in a dwelling that typically results in a glowing connection - especially at a loose terminal screw or stab in connection, or a loose fitting plug and receptacle. Most other loads - even if of higher wattage often do not run for as long of cycles to create as much heating of the same connection.

 

[peter d]

But those types of faults are really high resistance connections or heat producing faults, the AFCIs are not designed or tested to detect that type of fault. In my opinion a poor connection is by far the most common type of fault and the AFCI cannot directly detect that type of fault.

Why does an AFCI not detect a glowing fault? I was led to believe that they do.

 

[kwired]

My intent wasn't to put a price on saving a life - that's for the insurance adjuster to figure out. I was only pointing out that AFCIs cost more than headaches, especially nationwide (and that $216 is only for the breakers - not for additional time needed for installing or eventual troubleshooting). I think ultimately, GFI breakers would provide a similar level of protection to the premises wiring without the controversy that surround AFCI breakers. Many here talk about AFCIs as though they were a life safety device, but from what I read about them, their level of dependability and predictability is nowhere near what's required of a life safety device nor is there any method to independently verify their performance - something that should be required of any device designed to save people.

I don't know that time will provide evidence of AFCI effectiveness, since you can't prove that something would have happened without it. A fire MIGHT have been a possible outcome, but not necessarily.

I hope even insurance man doesn't put a price on someones life.

Just what is a life safety device? Especially when it comes to electrical equipment? Doesn't a standard therm/mag breaker potentially save lives by opening circuit under fault conditions? True we don't know every time one does open just exactly what would have happened if it did not, but we did minimize the risk by not finding out. Doesn't a deadfront on a panelboard potentially save lives by keeping fingers where they don't belong? I can go on and on with similar things, that are all very simple in nature.

 

[PetrosA]

I hope even insurance man doesn't put a price on someones life.

Just what is a life safety device? Especially when it comes to electrical equipment? Doesn't a standard therm/mag breaker potentially save lives by opening circuit under fault conditions? True we don't know every time one does open just exactly what would have happened if it did not, but we did minimize the risk by not finding out. Doesn't a deadfront on a panelboard potentially save lives by keeping fingers where they don't belong? I can go on and on with similar things, that are all very simple in nature.

Insurance people have to put that price together

I don't think of them as life safety devices (like a GFCI or airbag), but some posters here and manufacturers would have us think of them that way, or at least their marketing people would. Here's a quote from a pdf on the Eaton website called "NEMA - Expanding Home Safety with AFCI":

"Smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, emergency escape ladders ? these are all proven methods for making a quick and safe escape from a fire in the home. However, in addition to these measures, safety experts are looking at new technology ?in the walls? to prevent fires from starting in the first place. Arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCIs) -- the next generation in circuit breaker technology -- are one such life-saving tool."

The difference in my mind is that one type of device (GFCI or airbag) is specifically designed to save human lives in defined situations. AFCI is not. It's designed to prevent fires, which may only laterally have the effect of saving a life.

If the desire is to save even one life from fire at any cost, let's start building housing here like they do in Europe - block walls, block floors and ceilings, very little combustible material at all and almost zero chance of fire even spreading to the next room. But no. We keep building houses out of all the burniest materials we can think of.

 

[kwired]

Insurance people have to put that price together

I don't think of them as life safety devices (like a GFCI or airbag), but some posters here and manufacturers would have us think of them that way, or at least their marketing people would. Here's a quote from a pdf on the Eaton website called "NEMA - Expanding Home Safety with AFCI":

"Smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, emergency escape ladders ? these are all proven methods for making a quick and safe escape from a fire in the home. However, in addition to these measures, safety experts are looking at new technology ?in the walls? to prevent fires from starting in the first place. Arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCIs) -- the next generation in circuit breaker technology -- are one such life-saving tool."

The difference in my mind is that one type of device (GFCI or airbag) is specifically designed to save human lives in defined situations. AFCI is not. It's designed to prevent fires, which may only laterally have the effect of saving a life.

If the desire is to save even one life from fire at any cost, let's start building housing here like they do in Europe - block walls, block floors and ceilings, very little combustible material at all and almost zero chance of fire even spreading to the next room. But no. We keep building houses out of all the burniest materials we can think of.

I follow you on most of what you said. The last paragraph - about the block walls, floors, ceilings, - do those people also have furniture, carpet, and other items that will burn? Sure buildings constructed primarily from combustible materials will burn down to nearly nothing, but people that die in fires usually die from toxic fumes given off by burning plastics, and other man made materials commonly found indoors long before they burn up or the structure collapses on them.

We do have buildings here that have a lot of concrete, steel, and non combustible structural components, they are still loaded with combustible things and many of them plastics and other compounds that are just plain nasty compared to CO2 that would be the primary by product of burning wood. Get those items to burn and the structure may survive but anyone that couldn't get out for any reason still likely dies from poisonous gases and not from burns.

 

[PetrosA]

I follow you on most of what you said. The last paragraph - about the block walls, floors, ceilings, - do those people also have furniture, carpet, and other items that will burn? Sure buildings constructed primarily from combustible materials will burn down to nearly nothing, but people that die in fires usually die from toxic fumes given off by burning plastics, and other man made materials commonly found indoors long before they burn up or the structure collapses on them.

We do have buildings here that have a lot of concrete, steel, and non combustible structural components, they are still loaded with combustible things and many of them plastics and other compounds that are just plain nasty compared to CO2 that would be the primary by product of burning wood. Get those items to burn and the structure may survive but anyone that couldn't get out for any reason still likely dies from poisonous gases and not from burns.

Smoke inhalation would probably be the leading cause of death from fires there too, but I think the number of electrical fires from premises wiring is a lot lower than it is here since wiring is buried in the plaster.

Edit to add: very few people have wall to wall carpeting like they do here. Most homes I was in had hardwood or tile floors with area rugs at most.