AFCI Michigan

[iwire]

Dave, AFCIs are perfect you just don't know how to install them.










:lol:

 

[ActionDave]

Dave, AFCIs are perfect you just don't know how to install them.










:lol:

The handle goes up and down, right?

 

[bphgravity]

The number of verified complaints, not hearsay, is extraordinarily low when compared to the total number of AFCI devices that have been installed. In fact, it is so statistically tiny, an unwanted trip in one per a million devices is likely too frequent. It's like a very, very rare disease. There are a considerable number of persons with a one in a million disease, but statistically, it is a tiny fraction of the population. Same idea with AFCIs.

AFCI manufacturers have not been perfect. We all know there have been a couple of AFCI recalls of truly defective products. The AFCI products on the market today (both circuit breaker & receptacle type) are extraordinarily reliable devices as compared to other consumer products.

Facts are Facts...

 

[mbrooke]

The number of verified complaints, not hearsay, is extraordinarily low when compared to the total number of AFCI devices that have been installed. In fact, it is so statistically tiny, an unwanted trip in one per a million devices is likely too frequent. It's like a very, very rare disease. There are a considerable number of persons with a one in a million disease, but statistically, it is a tiny fraction of the population. Same idea with AFCIs.

AFCI manufacturers have not been perfect. We all know there have been a couple of AFCI recalls of truly defective products. The AFCI products on the market today (both circuit breaker & receptacle type) are extraordinarily reliable devices as compared to other consumer products.

Facts are Facts...

Ok, I will give you that much. Fair enough. It could be a lot higher.


Now, please show me the numbers that say arcing is behind 30,000 home fires per year.

 

[mbrooke]

All electrical equipment and any cord-and-plug connected appliance that is listed to a U.S. based electrical product standard (typically UL, but many CSA & IEC standards as well) will NOT trip an AFCI if it is operating under the normal parameters outlined in it's applicable standard. Period.

What you just wrote contradicts 1/4 of every AFCI post you have made thus far, including the one right above my reply. So which is it? AFCIs have tripped on perfectly safe and functioning NRTL appliances or that has never happened in the history of 210.12?

If the branch circuit wiring is completely free of defects, damage, and unintentional mis-wiring, an AFCI will not produce and unwanted trip. Period.

For the branch circuit itself, correct.

If the AFCI device is operating and functioning within the parameters outline in UL 1569, it will not produce an unwanted trip when connected to a code compliant and defect free branch-circuit supplying electrical equipment. Period.

You mean UL1699?


Either way UL1699 does not guarantee nuisance trip free operation for all appliances.

There is less than a 1% chance that a listed AFCI device is defective and not operating properly. This is based on batch testing, NRTL field reports, & data from the CPSC. So, there is likely a 99% change that what is being described as an unwanted or nuisance trip is more likely an AFCI device responding, properly, to a defective appliance or an unintentional mis-wire of the branch-circuit.

So you admit we have a flood of new, defective NRTL listed appliances hitting the market.

Much like GFCIs in the recent past, AFCIs are exposing the lack of workmanship and qualified electricians we have in our industry. They are also exposing the manufacturers of appliances and equipment that are not in compliance with their product standards. And, they are exposing the counterfeit and unlisted products that are flooding the market.

Ok, so now you are saying we have gaping holes in our NRLT standards and listing practices. Please elaborate. This is big.

As soon as these three problems are corrected, the issue of unwanted AFCI tripping goes away. NEMA has strategic initiatives currently in place to combat these three issues. In the meanwhile, more needs to be done to educate the installers and users about these issues so they know how to respond properly to AFCI tripping. This too is a major focus of NEMA activities, related to AFCIs.

So basically NEMA puts the blame on everyone but the manufactures. And now that I read it, it finally makes sense. NEMA is a bully (diversion resource) which takes the heat off manufactures placing it upon NRTLs, appliance makers and electricians.

The hyper-focus and obsession with the AFCI device itself has no merit. Our efforts need to be on workmanship, appliance standards, and preventing unlisted and counterfeit products. Period.

Thank you for explaining it. So to avoid liability all down falls are shifted else where?

My apologies for the short reply as I am busy, but I will get back to this.

 

[mbrooke]

And ok, lets say BPH is correct. All nuisance tripping is from defective appliances, cool. Then can you or someone please show me how the high frequency current ripple from an LED driver in a refrigerator creates a fire hazard?

 

[kenman215]

Verified complaint vs. hearsay? BPH, I understand that you have to base your numbers on what certified feedback you receive, but do you think for a second that even 1% of nuisance trips are reported? I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't have enough time in my day to be diligent about reporting such things. I'd also be interested to see how the complaints about AFCIs stack up against GFCIs.

Still waiting on those court cases too...

 

[peter d]

The hyper-focus and obsession with the AFCI device itself has no merit.

Spoken just like someone who has ease and comfort and never has to deal with the actual issues that AFCI's cause. Being a paid industry mouthpiece is a cushy job, you go to endless meetings and conferences and dinners, and are generally completely insulated from reality.

Our efforts need to be on workmanship, appliance standards, and preventing unlisted and counterfeit products. Period.

Yes, so manufacturers can continue to influence codes behind the scenes to force the use of their products.

 

[peter d]

Still waiting on those court cases too...

X2. I would like to see these court cases, as I'm sure others in this thread do as well. Not just lawsuits that were filed, but actually won.

 

[peter d]

That is flat out the biggest box of cargo labelled store high in transport that could ever be packaged.

I have personally talked to GE reps who have sent me new AFCI breakers and admitted that the their were changes made to the breaker to account for electronic loads.

I have personally seen power tools with electronic soft starts trip AFCI breakers and the same tools do not trip GFCI breakers. One was a brand new, out of the box Hitachi chop saw.

I've seen it too - a $600 Makita chop saw that constantly tripped a Square D QO AFCI, as well a Bostich air compressor.

On one particular job site, we had to remove AFCI's during construction because various tools were tripping the AFCI's on a regular basis.

 

[iwire]

I've seen it too - a $600 Makita chop saw that constantly tripped a Square D QO AFCI, as well a Bostich air compressor.

On one particular job site, we had to remove AFCI's during construction because various tools were tripping the AFCI's on a regular basis.

You see Pete, you just don't understand, we have been told that cannot happen. You simply need better training and education.

 

[mbrooke]

You see Pete, you just don't understand, we have been told that cannot happen. You simply need better training and education.

I think its BPH would needs better training and education. I have asked him repeatedly for over a year now to go into the science and theoretical aspect of arc faults and their mitigation. To this day he refuses to touch this area. Personally I am willing to bet BPH knows nothing about Paschen's law, volatilization of electrodes, incident energy, or waveform analysis.

 

[peter d]

Lawsuits are rarely about right and wrong. It's about who can be made to pay the most with the least amount of effort. Contractors shouldn't be under the delusion that following the law will protect them from being sued. The system is not designed to protect the little guy.

Which you seem quite content with.

Not true. It's information. Is telling someone that working on live equipment is dangerous a scare tactic? 99% of the questions on this Forum are code-based. Probably less than 1% are business oriented and even less are with regard to laws and rules. We don't spend enough time understand the laws and rules that determine our success and failures.

Most working people don't have enough time to do that. We're too busy making a living, not attending seminars and dinners.

I instruct courses on ethics, laws & rules and contractor & inspector liability.

Perhaps you could talk to us about the ethics of major corporations when they lied about having a combination AFCI available, a decade before they had actually invented that product.

Some of the stuff is scary, be it not likely or a worst case scenario.

You're pretty short on details when it comes to this, which destroys your credibility in brining up such cautionary tales in the first place.

So I can't possibly have anything else to offer this Forum?

Nothing when it comes to identifying genuine problems with and unethical behavior by manufacturers. You're simply unable to do that for reasons Iwire pointed out already.

Now that is silly. NEMA is a resource for the electrical industry at-large. And much like the NFPA, the NRTLs, NECA, IAEI and other industry advocates, many of the projects and activities we undertake do not have direct returns for our members and clients.

90% of NEMA standards are FREE to anyone. Every White Paper and Engineering Bulletin (150+) are FREE to anyone. Code Alerts, ei Magazine, NEMA Currents, NEMACasts, ESFI literature, Field Rep education and training, ALL FREE TO ANYONE.

I'll simply agree with Iwire - this is for the benefit of NEMA.

What a diabolical and devious mission! Without NEMA, the electrical industry would be half the size and strength it is today.
Nonsense. There is no standardization of LED products (where is NEMA on that issue) and yet those products offerings are vast and competitively priced.

The products you buy would cost twice as much and there would be no standardizing of those products.

Nonsense. There is no standardization of LED products (where is NEMA on that issue) and yet those products offerings are vast and competitively priced due to regular market forces at work.

When I look back and read some of the statements you guys make about our industry, it appears you guys are not for a free and open market, you oppose capitalism, you despise the success of others, you distrust anyone that doesn't have exactly your same beliefs, you have set your mind on many aspects of our industry and refuse any new information or viewpoints, your all pretty miserable acting and kind-of whinny. With all due respect.

I'll lay it out for you.

I'm as free market and pro-captialist as they get. I strongly distrust manufacturers, industry, big business and those that represent it. I wholeheartedly agree with Don (resqcapt) with his distrust of the industry.

I vehemently dislike being forced to use unproven products like the AFCI that were brought in to the NEC with a lie and have been surrounded by mystery and lies and ever since.

I'm actually a very open minded person when it comes to new products and technology, but not when I'm forced to use them at gunpoint because manufacturers have much sway over code makers.

Don't try to run me off because you haven't figured out how to use me and NEMA as a resource like many others have on this Forum and throughout the industry.

I don't know of anyone who has tried to run you off. I certainly haven't and I won't. I won't hesitate to challenge your assertions when you make them, and if that makes me "miserable and whinny", I'll gladly wear that label. But at the end of the day, I really have no use for you as you represent something that I distrust and despise, and as has been said already, you are a paid mouthpiece and nothing more.

 

[peter d]

You see Pete, you just don't understand, we have been told that cannot happen. You simply need better training and education.

Great point. I don't know what I was thinking. The $600 professional grade chop saw was the weak point in that equation, not the $49 AFCI. I'm going to write a long letter to Makita about how bad their products are, then I'll go turn in my electrical license.

 

[peter d]

I think its BPH would needs better training and education. I have asked him repeatedly for over a year now to go into the science and theoretical aspect of arc faults and their mitigation. To this day he refuses to touch this area. Personally I am willing to bet BPH knows nothing about Paschen's law, volatilization of electrodes, incident energy, or waveform analysis.

As I'm sure you've noticed, BPH has a habit of "hit and run" posting. He'll make a claim about something, get challenged, then will never show up again, or simply ignore the challenges being made.

 

[kenman215]

As I'm sure you've noticed, BPH has a habit of "hit and run" posting. He'll make a claim about something, get challenged, then will never show up again, or simply ignore the challenges being made.

The fact that he has failed to answer when asked on at least half a dozen times by multiple members whether or not he has case law to support his claims would seem to validate your assertion...

 

[ADub]

Great point. I don't know what I was thinking. The $600 professional grade chop saw was the weak point in that equation, not the $49 AFCI. I'm going to write a long letter to Makita about how bad their products are, then I'll go turn in my electrical license.

I lol'ed at this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[iwire]

Perhaps you could talk to us about the ethics of major corporations when they lied about having a combination AFCI available, a decade before they had actually invented that product.

I might be going out on a limb here but I doubt this will be answered.

 

[mbrooke]

As I'm sure you've noticed, BPH has a habit of "hit and run" posting. He'll make a claim about something, get challenged, then will never show up again, or simply ignore the challenges being made.

Because he doesnt have an answer :lol:


There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, none so deaf as those who refuse to hear.

 

[peter d]

The fact that he has failed to answer when asked on at least half a dozen times by multiple members whether or not he has case law to support his claims would seem to validate your assertion...

Yes, and this pattern of behavior has been apparent for some time before this thread existed, so nothing new. Otherwise I would not have been comfortable pointing it out.