AFCI Michigan

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bphgravity said:
When I look back and read some of the statements you guys make about our industry, it appears you guys are not for a free and open market, you oppose capitalism, you despise the success of others, you distrust anyone that doesn't have exactly your same beliefs, you have set your mind on many aspects of our industry and refuse any new information or viewpoints, your all pretty miserable acting and kind-of whinny. With all due respect.
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bphgravity said:
It is obvious to me that the Homebuilders Association in Michigan got the AFCIs removed from the product they manufacturer to protect their profits. And since they don't represent apartment, condo, and multifamily housing owners, they don't care that AFCIs are still required there. So, it has nothing to do with whether or not AFCIs work. Its all about protecting some entities profit and not the safety of the citizens involved.
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Gee Bryan, contradict yourself much? Let me see if I get this right, you upbraid us for supposedly being against the free market and capitalism on the one hand. But when a homebuilders association exercises those very open market and capitalistic principles, it's suddenly a problem. Do you actually put any thought into your replies here, or are you so restrained by the leash you're on that you don't see the blatant hypocrisy you display? I guess it's ok when electrical manufacturers protect their profit making ability, but not ok when homebuilder and their associations do.
 
K8MHZ said:
It pretty much lost credibility with me when they got out the propane torch in order to start the fires.
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Methodology aside , you're watching Fredrick F. Franklin , an EE and staunch afci technology advocate back during it's R&D era Marky.

He is well written & published btw.

Of interest is, he came to the same OCPD conclusion many investigative sorts did, as well as the manufacturers of afci OCPD's themselves.

This is no secret , but you'll never read it on the side of any afci package

nor would nema lips sink nema ships .....:lol:

~RJ~
 
kenman215 said:
BPH, why do you refuse to answer the questions posed to you? I haven't asked you to convince me of the merit of AFCIs? I haven't asked you to say that they don't work.

I've asked you if you can provide us with case law supporting your assertions. I've asked you if it's a possibility that the data pool you base your functionality claims of AFCIs on could perhaps not be as deep as you think, skewing the results. I've asked you how the verified complaint numbers for GFCIs stack up against AFCIs.

You have addressed none of these questions.

This is the exact reason why people don't trust what you say on this forum. I've posted before thinking that I know the answer, knowing that my opinion is correct, only to be re-educated by someone who knew more than me or who could disprove what I was saying. I don't ignore the people who challenge my posts, and I certainly don't refuse to answer questions that might weaken my position. You, however do.

Unless you address the hard questions, what you say on this topic will never be taken seriously, which is a shame, because you are in a unique position to weigh in with information that the rest of us don't have ready access to.

Answer the hard ones, BPH.
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Excellent posting, well stated. :thumbsup:

I'll simply add that I wonder if NEMA is aware of the public relations disaster that BPH is creating for NEMA. Far from creating trust and good dialogue with NEMA, he is only hardening the unbelief of skeptics like myself.
 
Thanks peter. I just find people like him incredibly frustrating. I walked a documentary a while back, think it was called "The Electrical Universe." The basic premise of it was that there is and always has been an electrical force running throughout the universe, affecting pretty much everything.

The proving and existence of this force has basically resulted in the a crapload of the equations that physicists and cosmologists have used to explain things for the past 50 years to be thrown in the trash can. Mind you these equations were never perfect, and when electrical force came in, everything fit perfectly.

Despite the lack of perfection in their previous equations, these scientist and mathemeticians stated their positions and work product as FACT, preached their brilliance from the mountaintops, and would have gone to the grave defending, was completely and utterly wrong.

This embarassment happened because of ego. It happened as a result of being close minded. BPH reminds of these people.

I consider myself a very competent electrician and an even better mechanic of the trade. Despite how quickly and accurately I can do the work, I am constantly evaluating my work processes, trying out new methodologies, listening to others' ideas and evaluating their merit.

As good as I may think I am, and as much as I may think I know, the fact that I am most comfortable stating is that I don't know everything. No matter what, in the end the truth will come out, and those who were too arrogant to consider themselves on the wrong side of the fence will be the ones looking like fools in the end.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
chris1971 said:
I look forward to the day when AFCI protection isn't required anywhere. We've been sold snake oil by the manufacturers. They have the deep pockets and the best lobbyists money can buy.
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Simple and to the point. :thumbsup: It's very true that manufacturers can influence code making bodies with their vast wealth and resources, and we're left holding the bag for their worthless product called the AFCI.
 
bphgravity said:
As soon as these three problems are corrected, the issue of unwanted AFCI tripping goes away. NEMA has strategic initiatives currently in place to combat these three issues. In the meanwhile, more needs to be done to educate the installers and users about these issues so they know how to respond properly to AFCI tripping. This too is a major focus of NEMA activities, related to AFCIs.
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Oh hey Bryan, it's me again. I know you don't reply to my postings because that is beneath your high and lofty position, but I can't help but point out what nonsense this is. We are now well into the second decade of AFCI usage and the learning curve of AFCI's is long gone for most of us. We're all well aware of installation parameters with AFCI's and I can confidently speak on behalf of most professional electricians that we know how to wire a circuit that is going to be AFCI protected.

The problem now is that AFCI's just trip for no apparent reason. All is clear with installation issues, but yet they just trip randomly or sporadically, often making it impossible and not cost effective to determine why it tripped. So what ends up happening is the AFCI is simply removed because the contractor is not going to continue to eat troubleshooting costs for ghost tripping of the AFCI. Yes, that's what happens in the real world.
 
chris1971 said:
Mbrooke,

I'm sorry, I thought you were the clown defending these worthless AFCI protection requirements. :slaphead::ashamed1:
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Its ok, Ive done it before. :) It can get hectic at times with all the posts coming in, its easy to misquote someone. Apologies on my part for not being as forthcoming earlier :ashamed1:
 
chris1971 said:
Mbrooke,

I'm sorry, I thought you were the clown defending these worthless AFCI protection requirements. :slaphead::ashamed1:
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Nothing is wrong with the requirements, there just isn't a product on the market that holds up it's end of things;)
 
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