AFCI Michigan

[mbrooke]

From what I heard from a Cutler Hammer video hosted by a rep its been fixed, or at least he brought up RFI.


Either way it does not change the fact AFCIs may never trip of dangerous arcing (assuming it happens). In order for manufactures to mitigate nuisance tripping they must also take away from elements intended to sense dangerous arcing.

 

[romex jockey]

Manufacturers can and will make more promotional material Mr MBrooke.

They'll also redefine what ever electrical terminology they desire to suit their needs.

What is an electrical arc? How does it exist in the physical world? What physical and mathematical qualities can we attach to an arc? How can we assess, suppress arcs?

This is where we should all take a ride in the wayback machine to the CSPC's offer to the industry.

It started as a friendly competition , and ended with a billion $$$ industry

In fairness, give most of us a lotta $$$$$$, and a decade of time , and we'll forward convincing argument pigs can fly.....


~RJ~

 

[victor.cherkashi]

There always side affects to good things, world and people aren't perfect

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[iwire]

There always side affects to good things, world and people aren't perfect

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Lying to the code making panels to get a rule in place is not a mistake

 

[K8MHZ]

In fairness, give most of us a lotta $$$$$$, and a decade of time , and we'll forward convincing argument pigs can fly.....


~RJ~

All you need is $9.95

http://www.carolina.com/catalog/det...L_ntzktHPZHS4jLMjnCCgLSX_VuheNjHKMaAm2H8P8HAQ

 

[mbrooke]

There always side affects to good things, world and people aren't perfect

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

AFCI are not even a good thing because they chase a problem that does not and never did exist.

 

[peter d]

Lying to the code making panels to get a rule in place is not a mistake

And neither was anything done to rectify that lie, to this day the industry advocates continue to gloss over it.

 

[mbrooke]

They'll also redefine what ever electrical terminology they desire to suit their needs.

And this case, "arc fault" has been ENTIRELY redefined. Allow me to demonstrate:


http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf

What is an electrical arc?

Well depending on who you ask you get different answers. The definition ranges anywhere between a luminous discharge of light between 2 electrodes all the way to the stage after ionization where air has encounters dielectric breakdown leading to a self sustained plasma discharge.


The latter does not equal the prior, which is KEY in this one.

How does it exist in the physical world? What physical and mathematical qualities can we attach to an arc? How can we assess, suppress arcs?

Well, at 120 volts air a self sustained arc is rather impossible:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/paschen.htm



However, if one was to apply "luminous discharge" to a simple short circuit, that could easily be called an "arc" because it technically fits the definition.

This is where we should all take a ride in the wayback machine to the CSPC's offer to the industry.

It started as a friendly competition , and ended with a billion $$$ industry

In fairness, give most of us a lotta $$$$$$, and a decade of time , and we'll forward convincing argument pigs can fly.....

The history sheds the most light, rather eye opening as well...

 

[mbrooke]

And neither was anything done to rectify that lie, to this day the industry advocates continue to gloss over it.

And inspectors, firefighter and other professionals believe this massive lie :happyno::happyno:

 

[iwire]

And inspectors, firefighter and other professionals believe this massive lie :happyno::happyno:

You really should stop with these generalizations.

 

[peter d]

And inspectors, firefighter and other professionals believe this massive lie :happyno::happyno:

:roll::roll:

I would say most are ignorant of the facts, perhaps some of them would be enlightened if they knew the whole story but it's unlikely anyone that benefits directly from the industry will. Once upon a time long ago, even I believed in AFCI's until I read the many postings on this forum.

That said, I do believe that there's little excuse to be ignorant about AFCI's especially if you're directly involved in the industry. There is a wealth of valuable information about them, a vast amount on this forum alone.

 

[mbrooke]

I just want to point out that there are two exception to the 120 volt self sustained arc rule.


1. A series arc generator with a carbon to metal electrode which helps keep a sustained arc due to the action of the carbon electrode.

2. An insulation cut which has been subject 15,000 volts for a long enough period of time to "carbonize" a conductive path across the cut which lets 120 volts flow through.

But, just to boil it down to a layman concept:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y674KwBig6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwKQ9Idq9FM

 

[mbrooke]

You really should stop with these generalizations.

That makes two of us :thumbsup:


https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=174329&page=11&p=1708256#post1708256

 

[iwire]

I think firefighters, inspectors and AHJs are people just like us and their views are as different from each other as our opinions are on this forum.

I will add that regardless of how they may personally feel about AFCIs they must enforce the adopted rules in their area. To do otherwise is unethical and they should not be doing that job.

 

[mbrooke]

:roll::roll:

I would say most are ignorant of the facts, perhaps some of them would be enlightened if they knew the whole story but it's unlikely anyone that benefits directly from the industry will. Once upon a time long ago, even I believed in AFCI's until I read the many postings on this forum.

That said, I do believe that there's little excuse to be ignorant about AFCI's especially if you're directly involved in the industry. There is a wealth of valuable information about them, a vast amount on this forum alone.

I think it boils down to this: people have blind trust in authority.

 

[iwire]

That makes two of us :thumbsup:


https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=174329&page=11&p=1708256#post1708256

That is not a generalization, but thanks for trying.

 

[iwire]

I think it boils down to this: people have blind trust in authority.

Yes, only you can see the truth, the rest of the world is ignorant. :roll:

 

[peter d]

I think firefighters, inspectors and AHJs are people just like us and their views are as different from each other as our opinions are on this forum.

As I just stated, I think their opinions might change if they were presented with all the information that we've been priveledged to receive just by participating in the discussions here.

I will add that regardless of how they may personally feel about AFCIs they must enforce the adopted rules in their area. To do otherwise is unethical and they should not be doing that job.

I agree.

 

[mbrooke]

Yes, only you can see the truth, the rest of the world is ignorant. :roll:

Mislead and lied to by authority. I never said every single inspector and firefighter believes in them, but ask the majority and the ratio is high. To high imo.

 

[peter d]

I think it boils down to this: people have blind trust in authority.

To a large degree that is true. That being said, a civil society needs law and order and authority. I'm far from someone that just blindly follows a crowd but there's a time and place to question authority. An inspector has to do his job, if he has moral objections to it then he should quit or find a way to educate those above him so the law can be changed. I'm not against electrical codes but I absolutely believe that process has been thoroughly corrupted now.