AFCI "Myth"

Status
Not open for further replies.
480sparky said:
Does the NFPA still produce Formal Interpretations?
Click to expand...

I don't know.


That is why I am hoping Sparks will tell us if this was an FI, or CMP statements or a friend of friend knows the guy that sweeps the floor at the building next to the NFPAs and he said ....
 
glene77is said:
Current oddities and questionable wordings aside,
I think the NFPA will pursue the "Intent" .
Click to expand...
I appreciate the optimism in your thought.

As I've pondered the definition of Outlet I've learned that the term is old enough that I haven't been able to nail down it's beginning. The definition has changed very little over its life, and those changes were with respect to a list of loads that eventually became the term "Utilization Equipment".

Maybe, Ken (480), you have some insight into when it appears. And before the formal definition, how was the concept used?

The "Intent" will be in some very old documents from the first half of the 1900s, if they can be found at all.

Short of the historical intent, various new Code Proposals targeted at Outlet, Controller, Premises Wiring (System) and 404.14 to either increase or decrease the way the language interlinks will, hopefully, create a string of new Code Making Panel Statements.
 
quogueelectric said:
To me ...
Click to expand...

Quo,
You wrote "To Me... the definition of outlet it is at the least a very poorly thought out definition causing confusion among the ranks."
This is a sign that you are mellowing with age.
Good sign!

To me,
(1) The receptical is a point where power
exits & returns the branch circuit.
(2) The Switch is a controller.
(3) The OCPD is a controller.
(4) Other circuits passing through a JB
are not covered YET, as regards the AFCI in the NEC.

Do I need to duck?
:)
 
glene77is said:
To me,
(1) The receptical is a point where power
exits & returns the branch circuit.
(2) The Switch is a controller.
(3) The OCPD is a controller.
(4) Other circuits passing through a JB
are not covered YET, as regards the AFCI in the NEC.

Do I need to duck?
:)
Click to expand...
I don't think you need to duck.

Just consider your (1) in light of the Article 100 Definition of Receptacle, Receptacle Outlet and Outlet. Power is never mentioned in any of these three definitions. And. Current, only, is in the definition of Outlet.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I don't think you need to duck.

Just consider your (1) in light of the Article 100 Definition of Receptacle, Receptacle Outlet and Outlet. Power is never mentioned in any of these three definitions. And. Current, only, is in the definition of Outlet.
Click to expand...

So with that being said I will ask again, where is the definition of "Switch Outlet" no one has told me what page it is on yet.

Roger
 
al hildenbrand said:
:grin:

Keep looking. . . ;)
Click to expand...

Al, you know I know the answer, I'm asking for someone to show me where the definition is in the NEC. ;)

Regardless, let's look at what a CMP member says about switces and this discussion.

The Ins and Outs of AFCI Protection
by Mark C. Ode


With this new change applying to all 125V, single-phase, 15 and 20A outlets within a dwelling unit bedroom, determining where AFCI protection applied was not as simple and easy to accomplish. Branch circuits for smoke detectors, small window air conditioners, ceiling paddle fans, refrigerators, heaters, and lighting units (luminaires), as well as other outlets throughout the bedroom, were now required to be AFCI protected. Questions were raised about whether luminaires in walk-in closets required AFCI protection, which were easily answered by supplying it from a bedroom circuit already AFCI protected. Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.

2005 NEC.
Click to expand...

Roger
 
Roger,

I respect Mark Ode's bonfides. Looking at his statement, however, is confusing.
Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.
Click to expand...
We know receptacles are devices too. . .are they, also, not outlets?
 
Last edited:
al hildenbrand said:
.............Maybe, Ken (480), you have some insight into when it appears. And before the formal definition, how was the concept used? ...................
Click to expand...

Definition of an 'outlet'?

1923 is the first issue of the NEC I have that has definitions in it.

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally.
Click to expand...

In 1956, ".... fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."
 
480sparky said:
fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."
Click to expand...

Man I thought utilization equipment was a pain to type all the tiime, I guess I should be happy it's not still fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices
 
480sparky said:
Definition of an 'outlet'?

1923 is the first issue of the NEC I have that has definitions in it.
Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally.
Click to expand...
In 1956, ".... fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."
Click to expand...
Thanks, Ken.

The interesting thing, to me, is that the core phrase that I emphasized with red is word for word unaltered after over three quarters of a century.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Thanks, Ken.

The interesting thing, to me, is that the core phrase that I emphasized with red is word for word unaltered after over three quarters of a century.
Click to expand...


Most likely, the shopping list of items was replaced with a broad term because someone said (insert load here) is not listed in the definition, therefore (insert load here) do not get plugged into outlets, ergo it's not an outlet.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:-?

I can't. My electronic NECH has no page numbers.
Click to expand...

Ohhhhh, so that's the reason you haven't been able to answer my question, now I think I am beginning to understand your confussion.:grin:


Roger
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top