AFCI "Myth"

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al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I don't see a luminaire as falling under "associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices"
When I go to the hardware I find luminaires, lamps, transformers, anchors, fuses, cord, screws, motors, appliances, switches, circuit breakers and panels, cable, conduit, straps, fittings, wire, solder, wirenuts, receptacles, etc. on the shelves, and all of them are available to me.
 

mivey

Senior Member
When I go to the hardware I find luminaires, lamps, transformers, anchors, fuses, cord, screws, motors, appliances, switches, circuit breakers and panels, cable, conduit, straps, fittings, wire, solder, wirenuts, receptacles, etc. on the shelves, and all of them are available to me.
...and coffee, donuts,... but I bet you wouldn't nail those to a wall.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
...and coffee, donuts,... but I bet you wouldn't nail those to a wall.
:grin:
True, that.
2008 NEC
Article 100 Definitions

Premises Wiring (System). . . . together with all their associated hardware, . . .
Now, on my job site, I might even argue that the donut is "associated" to my wiring. . . ;)
 
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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Switches are indeed outlets. Any place you tie into a branch circuit for lighting, receptacles, switches, etc. is considered an outlet.

And, if you have read the whole thread, I have maintained: If that is your logic, then every point on the circuit..... the breaker and it's connection to the bus bar, splices, timers, junction boxes, fuses, a VFD, a photocell, the conductor itself (not just where you install a device as the Code specifically says "a point").... etc. are outlets.
 
Wow!!

Wow!!

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but do you guys read the NEC?? This was way over analyzed. If you go to the NEC handbook, and look at the commentary and read the def on Outlet it says: " This term is frequently misused. Common examples of outlets include lighting outlets, receptacle outlets and smoke alarm outlets."

Then if you go to NEC 210.12(B) it says: " All 120-volt, single phase, 15-and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in.........."

So! if there are any OUTLETS on one of these branch circuits in a qualifying room, then everything on that circuit.....including switches.....is going to be AFCI protected. Just as simple as that.....

The only think that keeps coming up in secondary publications I have read is that the intent of AFCI protection was to protect against arcs from equipment plugged into RECEPTCALES. So why is lighting and smokes required....thats one for NFPA to answer I guess.
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but do you guys read the NEC?? This was way over analyzed. If you go to the NEC handbook, and look at the commentary and read the def on Outlet it says: " This term is frequently misused. Common examples of outlets include lighting outlets, receptacle outlets and smoke alarm outlets."

Then if you go to NEC 210.12(B) it says: " All 120-volt, single phase, 15-and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in.........."

So! if there are any OUTLETS on one of these branch circuits in a qualifying room, then everything on that circuit.....including switches.....is going to be AFCI protected. Just as simple as that.....

The only think that keeps coming up in secondary publications I have read is that the intent of AFCI protection was to protect against arcs from equipment plugged into RECEPTCALES. So why is lighting and smokes required....thats one for NFPA to answer I guess.

Welcome aboard, and I agree with you! I think the definition of ?outlet? explains it quite well.
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
I agree.

Got to love it. Sparksnarks jumps right in on his first post.

Welcome.

I was formally taught the definition of outlet in 1984 and it still never fails to surprise me. What this forum teaches me is never to rely on memory they print the book so you can look it up so do it!!
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
Yea and the OP never said he installed a floodlight with a switch in a bedroom. He just said he installed some circuits that did nto require AFCI or GFCI. Now we got a 3 page debate about the def of outlet. Sometimes this place is frustrating.

Yes but the last major reno I did was a 500 sq ft add to A house with exterior lighting out to the pool in the backyard from the new master bedroom and dining room addition. Two sliding glass doors to the pool. This stuff is real and thought about when it affect/effects you. I afcid everything and it trips occasionally and the homeowner has already been warned that this could happen and he is totally ok with it. Other customers would not be as happy.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The only think that keeps coming up in secondary publications I have read is that the intent of AFCI protection was to protect against arcs from equipment plugged into RECEPTCALES. So why is lighting and smokes required....thats one for NFPA to answer I guess.
Welcome to the Forum.

You probably recall that the original version of 210.12(B) was, in fact, only for circuits supplying receptacles, that is, no mention of other types of Outlets. Then, 210.12(B) was expanded to cover all "outlets" in the specified areas.

The original AFCI breakers, the Branch Feeder type, didn't have the ability to be listed to see down the zip cords of common equipment plugged into the home. That meant the "grand concept" of the AFCI still wasn't being delivered.

With the Combination type AFCI breakers, the present requirement, the ability to "see" arcs in the Utilization Equipment finally became a reality.

This, to me, is a progressive expansion of the coverage of 210.12(B), in addition to the increases spaces in a dwelling.
This was way over analyzed.
Used to be more of a stretch, but with the 2008 NEC 210.12(B) expanding the areas that AFCI protection is required for, the situation becomes more common. And the situation is this: Single family dwelling with a detatched garage. The garage is on its own 15 Amp 125 V circuit. The garage circuit supplies receptacles and luminaires on and in the garage, ONLY. Now, a switch inside the house back hallway controls the luminaire on the side of the garage service door. My question, back to you, Sparksnarks, is, does the switch, installed in an area under 210.12(B), controlling load outside the area under 210.12(B), cause the garage branch circuit to be AFCI protected?

This kind of situation occurs more often under the 2008 NEC 210.12(B).

The answer is bound up in the meaning of the definition of Outlet, as given in Article 100.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
But Al, you are the only person I have ever 'known' that wants to call the box a single pole switch is located in 'an outlet'.:)
Heh!

Well the box isn't the outlet.

And the switch, by itself, isn't an outlet. . . but when the switch is used as a Controller, then, IMO, the interior of the switch is not allowed to be part of the Premises Wiring (System), and the definition of Outlet is met.
 
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