AFCI "Myth"

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al hildenbrand said:
This is the biggest incorrect meme about the issue. An Outlet is current, only, passing a point . . . current taken by utilization equipment somewhere in the circuit of the current. A Receptacle doesn't utilize anything either.Because the Code is silent about "Switch Outlet" doesn't prove the negative that there is no Switch Outlet.

But I'll take my four Code citations (Post #21) over your Code silence. :)
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So Article 220 will now account for snap switches? ??VA each :)
 
All I can say is ,..Good Flip-pin Grief. Please ,..not again,.. my head still hurts from the last time:roll:
 
tryinghard said:
So Article 220 will now account for snap switches? ??VA each :)
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I didn't write the four Code citations I note. I merely saw how they interlink.

Much of 220 references loads, lighting outlets and receptacle outlets, with some exceptions where the singular term outlet is, in fact, used. Either some editorial changes or some re-definition of definitions are in order.
 
quogueelectric said:
The Lemming believes in majority rule.
This is the defimition "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. " Simple english with no spin. A switch is just what this describes.
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But it does not say that 'a point' must be a device. It can be ANY point on the premise wiring. It can be a point anywhere on the branch circuit conductor. The breaker. The bus bar. A splice anywhere in the circuit.
So how do you AFCI-protect the breaker itself and it's connection with the bus-bar?
 
480sparky said:
But it does not say that 'a point' must be a device. It can be ANY point on the premise wiring. It can be a point anywhere on the branch circuit conductor. The breaker. The bus bar. A splice anywhere in the circuit.
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Yes the "point" can effectively be anywhere on the Premises Wiring (System), but not anywhere on the "circuit", as the circuit includes the source side of the Service Point (Art. 100) and the "downstream" side of the Outlet, i.e., the Utilization Equipment and its associated wiring.

While the Code "does not say that 'a point' must be a device", it doesn't exclude devices. An Outlet most certainly occurs inside a receptacle device. And, thinking of non-device outlets, I immediately think of a built in oven with a factory supplied flex whip that is wire nutted to the branch circuit conductors . . . there the wire nuts hold the Outlet.
48sparky said:
So how do you AFCI-protect the breaker itself and it's connection with the bus-bar?
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The bus side of the AFCI is not a 15 or 20 A 125 V circuit, the bus is protected by the OCPD ahead of the AFCI breaker.

The AFCI breaker is identified for switching duty, I think. . . I actually haven't verified this yet. . . I know virtually all 15 and 20 A commodity single pole breakers are identified SWD, that is, as switches. Say the AFCI breaker is identified for switching duty and, therefore, an outlet occurs in the switch used as a controller. . . looking at the turn of phrase in 210.12(B), I ask, does the AFCI breaker supply the outlet inside the breaker. I think not. The AFCI definitely supplies the outlets out on the branch circuit, just not the outlet that occurs in itself.

In the strictest sense, the Outlet in a switch occurs at the point between the line side of the switch and the wiring internal to the switch. The line side of an AFCI breaker is not a 15 or 20 A 125 V circuit, therefore, the Outlet occuring in an AFCI breaker doesn't fall under 210.12(B).
 
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al hildenbrand said:
Yes the "point" can effectively be anywhere on the Premises Wiring (System), but not anywhere on the "circuit", as the circuit includes the source side of the Service Point (Art. 100) and the "downstream" side of the Outlet, i.e., the Utilization Equipment and its associated wiring.

While the Code "does not say that 'a point' must be a device", it doesn't exclude devices. An Outlet most certainly occurs inside a receptacle device. And, thinking of non-device outlets, I immediately think of a built in oven with a factory supplied flex whip that is wire nutted to the branch circuit conductors . . . there the wire nuts hold the Outlet.
The bus side of the AFCI is not a 15 or 20 A 125 V circuit, the bus is protected by the OCPD ahead of the AFCI breaker.

The AFCI breaker is identified for switching duty, I think. . . I actually haven't verified this yet. . . I know virtually all 15 and 20 A commodity single pole breakers are identified SWD, that is, as switches. Say the AFCI breaker is identified for switching duty and, therefore, an outlet occurs in the switch used as a controller. . . looking at the turn of phrase in 210.12(B), I ask, does the AFCI breaker supply the outlet inside the breaker. I think not. The AFCI definitely supplies the outlets out on the branch circuit, just not the outlet that occurs in itself.

In the strictest sense, the Outlet in a switch occurs at the point between the line side of the switch and the wiring internal to the switch. The line side of an AFCI breaker is not a 15 or 20 A 125 V circuit, therefore, the Outlet occuring in an AFCI breaker doesn't fall under 210.12(B).
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Is not the connection between the bus bar and the breaker 'a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment'? Would not the terminals on the main be considered as 'a point....."? Or the lugs in the meter socket? Or the connections at the weatherhead?
 
480sparky said:
Is not the connection between the bus bar and the breaker 'a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment'?
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Yes. And the breaker, if a switch, IMO, has an Outlet in it.
480sparky said:
Would not the terminals on the main be considered as 'a point....."?
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Sure, the terminals are a point on the Premises Wiring (System). What's missing is that one side or the other, of the point, has to be not part of the Premises Wiring (System) - Article 100.
480sparky said:
Or the lugs in the meter socket?
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Which lugs? Line or load? Is the Service Point at the line lugs? If so, see the next response. If there is no Service Point, see my previous response, directly above.
480sparky said:
Or the connections at the weatherhead?
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That's an interesting question. Again, is this the Service Point, or is it a connection at a weatherhead for the overhead feeder to, let's say, my dwelling associated detached garage? The Service Point is defined as such, that is, a Service Point. Kinda looks like an Outlet, with Premises Wiring (System) on one side and "not" Premises Wiring (System) on the other side. The difference, seems to me, is the current is supplied at the Service Point, not taken.
 
al hildenbrand said:
.......What's missing is that one side or the other, of the point, has to be not part of the Premises Wiring (System) - Article 100........
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Seems to me everything from the weatherhead to the last receptacle on a branch circuit is part of the Premises Wiring (System)

Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed. This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point.
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They way 'Outlet' is defined, 'a point' could be anywhere on 'the System'.
 
480sparky said:
Seems to me everything from the weatherhead to the last receptacle on a branch circuit is part of the Premises Wiring (System)
Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed. This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point.
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They way 'Outlet' is defined, 'a point' could be anywhere on 'the System'.
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In all but rare cases, modern wiring practice is to install a massively parallel system of Outlets. That's the basis of being able to install an Outlet anywhere along a Code approved installation.

We build a Premises Wiring (System) with one Service Point (an "inlet", if you'll allow my looseness with the language), and many Outlets. In between any one Outlet and the Service Point, one finds the Premises Wiring (System). The other side of any one Outlet is "not-Premises Wiring (System)", AND, current is taken for Utilization Equipment.

Now, the current, taken by a Utilization Equipment (singular), flows through a complete "circuit" that, as a result of the Main Bonding Jumper, has multiple paths. There are an infinite number of "points" along these paths. Taking Outlet and Premises Wiring (System) together (note my red bolding), one identifies such "points" that have "not-Premises Wiring (System)" on the other side, points that are also "not-Service Point".
 
480sparky said:
Seems to me everything from the weatherhead to the last receptacle on a branch circuit is part of the Premises Wiring (System).
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The Code is silent about whether an Outlet can be in series with an Outlet.
 
480sparky said:
Seems to me everything from the weatherhead to the last receptacle on a branch circuit is part of the Premises Wiring (System).
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You omitted the last sentence of the Article 100 Definition:
Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.
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480sparky said:
Because it is irrelevent to the discussion.
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I await with baited breath your explanation of why only the first two sentences of a three sentence definition of Premises Wiring (System) is the definition of Premises Wiring (System).
 
al hildenbrand said:
I await with baited breath your explanation of why only the first two sentences of a three sentence definition of Premises Wiring (System) is the definition of Premises Wiring (System).
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The discussion is about an outlet. An outlet is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.". What is attached to that outlet is not an outlet then. The third sentence is about that very utilization equipment. That is why it is irrelevant to the discussion.
 
480sparky said:
The discussion is about an outlet. An outlet is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.". What is attached to that outlet is not an outlet then. The third sentence is about that very utilization equipment. That is why it is irrelevant to the discussion.
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Switch on current is taken. Switch off current is not taken. On taken ......... Off not taken...........ON>>>>>>>>>OFF>>>>>>>>>>ON>>>>>>>>>>OFF>>>>>>>>>> Current is taken get over it. Maybe if you taped the switch in the off position..........
 
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