AFCI "Myth"

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
I won't quote who said this because the point isn't to break his chops. The point is more to dispell a rumor or myth before it becomes "that's the way I've always done it".

This is the statement...

My simple take on this is if it does not require GFI protection then it requires AFCI protection
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.

And again I'm not bringing this up to ridicule anyone. My thinking is that someone reads this (an inspector perhaps) and just takes it as that's the way it is when in fact it is way oversimplified and incorrect.

Since this was written I have thought about it during some recent installations.

Floodlights, dishwashers, outside light fixtures, bathroom fan, basement lights etc.

All things that I have installed recently and none of which require gfci or afci protection.

So no real question just an FYI I guess. :)
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
electricmanscott said:
I won't quote who said this because the point isn't to break his chops. The point is more to dispell a rumor or myth before it becomes "that's the way I've always done it".

This is the statement...

.

And again I'm not bringing this up to ridicule anyone. My thinking is that someone reads this (an inspector perhaps) and just takes it as that's the way it is when in fact it is way oversimplified and incorrect.

Since this was written I have thought about it during some recent installations.

Floodlights, dishwashers, outside light fixtures, bathroom fan, basement lights etc.

All things that I have installed recently and none of which require gfci or afci protection.

So no real question just an FYI I guess. :)
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If the switching is run in rooms for floodlights and outside lighting how can it not be required to be afci if the switching is located in say a bedroom??
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
quogueelectric said:
If the switching is run in rooms for floodlights and outside lighting how can it not be required to be afci if the switching is located in say a bedroom??
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Switches are not outlets. Only the circuits supplying the outlets in those rooms are required to be AFCI protected. 210.12.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
480sparky said:
Switches are not outlets. Only the circuits supplying the outlets in those rooms are required to be AFCI protected. 210.12.
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Then you would have to run seperate circuits to pick these up and it seems to bring up the controversy reguarding the definition of outlet it is at the least a very poorly thought out definition causing confusion among the ranks.
Why have a br high hat circuit afci through a sliding door switch location yet have a different circuit in the same wall in the same room under the same staple in the same box feeding the outside floods NOT on afci????? This makes absolutely zero sense. It makes them look like they are incompetent fools.
The point on a wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment. To me the switchleg and the controling device the switch are most definitely a point on a wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment from the feed.
OK I will duck now..................
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
quogueelectric said:
Then you would have to run seperate circuits to pick these up and it seems to bring up the controversy reguarding the definition of outlet it is at the least a very poorly thought out definition causing confusion among the ranks...................
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What poorly-thought-out definition? Who says switches are outlets? They're not.

But there's no requirement that says they can't be on an AFCI-protected circuit. For instance, if I had a bedroom that had an exterior door, I'd hesitate not one second to put the light outside on the bedroom circuit simply because i don't have to bring in another non-AFCI'd circuit for it.

But if, for some reason, I have a circuit solely for exterior lighting, the switch in the bedroom is not required to be AFCI'd.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
480sparky said:
What poorly-thought-out definition? Who says switches are outlets? They're not.

But there's no requirement that says they can't be on an AFCI-protected circuit. For instance, if I had a bedroom that had an exterior door, I'd hesitate not one second to put the light outside on the bedroom circuit simply because i don't have to bring in another non-AFCI'd circuit for it.

But if, for some reason, I have a circuit solely for exterior lighting, the switch in the bedroom is not required to be AFCI'd.
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By definition I will respectfully disagree.
 
jaylectricity

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Although a switch is not an outlet, a switch is definitely a link in the chain that can be weakened and cause an arc-fault.

That being said, why AFCI the lights in the kitchen?
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
quogueelectric said:
NEC 2005 NFPA 70 Article 100 Definitions Outlet- A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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Then by that interpretation of the definition, conductors, wire nuts, breakers, fuses, bus bars, meter sockets, splices, etc etc etc. would be considered outlets.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
480sparky said:
Then by that interpretation of the definition, conductors, wire nuts, breakers, fuses, bus bars, meter sockets, splices, etc etc etc. would be considered outlets.
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No the box with the wall opening letting out the wiring system for utilization is my take on it. Hey I didnt write the book. Dont shoot the messenger. I will continue ducking for a while longer.................
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
quogueelectric said:
No the box with the wall opening letting out the wiring system for utilization is my take on it. Hey I didnt write the book. Dont shoot the messenger. I will continue ducking for a while longer.................
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Well, doesn't the same current that the switch supplies also come through the breaker or fuse? Isn't that same current being 'taken' to supply utilization equipment traveling along the entire length of the branch circuit conductors? Does it not flow through the meter socket? The service conductors? Aren't they all 'a point in the wiring system'?
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
480sparky said:
Well, doesn't the same current that the switch supplies also come through the breaker or fuse? Isn't that same current being 'taken' to supply utilization equipment traveling along the entire length of the branch circuit conductors? Does it not flow through the meter socket? The service conductors? Aren't they all 'a point in the wiring system'?
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Lets get arc fault xformers and call it a day.
 
quogueelectric

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
480sparky said:
What about all the points on the primary system? I guess we're stuck with AFCI-protected generating plants.

I plug in a 40-year old vacuum cleaner, and four states go *blink*.
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I personally would like them to produce an afci panel with an alarm and a time delay of a few minutes before a trip rather than just shut everything off type like we have now.
 
N

nakulak

Senior Member
if the intent of the arc fault is to protect lives from (interation with receptacles) (??), then a time delay would seem to reduce the protection to no protection ?
 
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