AFCI Question

[NoVA Comms Power]

There is not yet a device with that functionality on the market.

I share your skepticism.

If these devices REALLY worked, wouldn't there be a marketing blitz extoling their virtues?

Any "responsible homeowner" with children would demand that these devices be installed lest they be branded unfit parents.

Just think of all the $$$ which could be made selling and installing these "upgrades."

The reality is that after all these years ... they STILL aren't being widely marketed ... instead, the manufacturers are taking an "alternate marketing" approach by re-writing the "requirements."

I -- and I think most in the safety-related industry -- would pro-AFCI (or at least not anti-AFCI) IF they actually worked as-promised.

 

[radiopet]

This is a prime reason you do not see Eaton for example doing heavy promotion about the combination units.....they have many many hours of working on it and you can trust my information that it will be ready and released for the 1/2008 deadline.

However, they want it to be the best and right and simply are not going to submit a product to UL testing TOO early as they have plenty of time to continue to work on it, make it better and meet all the demands of critics.

While you have seen Sq D and Seim. say they have produced one....do you see them standard on shelves...?...nope.....

I think with anything the NEC is going for safety and the move to increase safety as we do have stats to look at in regards to fires ( www.arcfault.org ) so I don't have a problem with the AFCI move.....my client will pay for the safety and as a contractor...if everyone has to play on the same field.....increased prices are simply part of growth in my opinion.

I know for a fact Eaton is ready for the 1/2008 compliance deadline and it will be as always a QUALITY product...not just something to slap on a shelf for sale to meet a standard.

 

[celtic]

.... you can trust my information that it will be ready and released for the 1/2008 deadline.

Now why would we do that?

I know for a fact Eaton is ready for the 1/2008 compliance deadline and it will be as always a QUALITY product...not just something to slap on a shelf for sale to meet a standard.

Really?

I would be very interested to see some documentation to support these claims.

 

[oldcrow]

You know, Paul has a good point. I saw in another post that the Siem device is not the final version. Why the heck would they offer for sale a device that is not a final design? Hmmmm. :-?

Personally, I think Eaton is first class. I have installed pretty much everyones stuff at one time or another and can say that I have the least call backs when it comes to Eaton's AFCIs. I have them in my house. EVERY 15 and 20A circuit. No nuisance trips. I sleep safe.:grin:

 

[radiopet]

Look..Celtic do you REALLY think the leader of the industry would not have a mandated product by the deadline.....this is their industry, they have one of the pioneers in the field ( Joe Engle ) on staff with over 70 patents and lastly...I teach for Eaton on the ECCN program and trust my source is a good source.....and I wont go beyond that.

When eaton rolls it out.....it will be beyond compare......lets see...Sq D had a recall some time back........hmmm...other people push stuff out right away...the deadline is 1/2008.......personally the sign of a GOOD company is taking all the time needed to make it RIGHT the first time...

Eaton is doing it right.........I have good enough sources to say this is so....believe me or not...I have nothing to gain in telling a lie regarding it....

 

[celtic]

Ladies and gentlemen....place your bets:

Will the industry leader do it right?

Will we be celebrating the New year w/o a mandated product?

 

[yanici]

When eaton rolls it out.....it will be beyond compare......personally the sign of a GOOD company is taking all the time needed to make it RIGHT the first time...

Eaton is doing it right.........I have good enough sources to say this is so....believe me or not...I have nothing to gain in telling a lie regarding it....

Radiopet, you may have great faith in Eaton. But checkout the thread by earshavewalls[several arc fault breakers in panel] on how hot the afci's are getting. Eaton's solution was to replace them with standard breakers. That is a bailout in my book.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the thread on CH arch Faults

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=85219

 

[celtic]

Radiopet, you may have great faith in Eaton. But checkout the thread by earshavewalls[several arc fault breakers in panel] on how hot the afci's are getting. Eaton's solution was to replace them with standard breakers. That is a bailout in my book.

Come on...they still have 7 months (plus a few weeks) to get it together...

​

 

[iwire]

Radiopet, you may have great faith in Eaton.

Faith?

Heck he sounds like a paid spokesperson.

 

[iwire]

do you REALLY think the leader of the industry would not have a mandated product by the deadline......

Do I think there will be a product offered for sale?

Yes, very likely.

Will the results justify the costs?

Not to likely.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Paul,

I know for a fact Eaton is ready for the 1/2008 compliance deadline and it will be as always a QUALITY product...not just something to slap on a shelf for sale to meet a standard.

If so it will only be 13 years late. Eaton was submitted the original AFCI proposal and said that the product they had then would do what is promised in the combination type. It is my understanding that Eaton has not submitted the combination AFCI to UL for testing is because they can't eliminate the nuisance trips.
Don

 

[peter d]

It is my understanding that Eaton has not submitted the combination AFCI to UL for testing is because they can't eliminate the nuisance trips.
Don

Is this because it can't distinguish between a "normal" arc and a hazardous one?

 

[radiopet]

Well basically I am telling you "EXACTLY" what is told to me...I have the e-mails and I trust my sources. As for the cost...well you have to determine your own factor as to which you think cost justifies the means....My opinion is to me it does....and opinions are like A-Holes...everyones got one.

The reason it has not been submitted is because their is still plenty of time......again..how many Square D and Seimens do you see on the shelf that meet the combination requirement....that are actually being SOLD right now in supply houses and box stores.....

Sending something through UL at the level Eaton is at....is not a hard task I do not believe.

As for cost.......look I don't for a second think the conversation bears weight on EATON being behind the 2008 potential requirement we are facing....you can blame the NEC and Code Panels for that........

With that said.........I have no problem at all increasing my costs to my clients of $ 500.00- 600.00 for what I feel is added safety.......have no problem with it at all.

Also with regards to UL....if you RUSH to place a product in UL testing with many months left for valued testing...and you make changes...you have to RE-SUBMIT to UL testing yet again.......taking the time to get it RIGHT and not have possible ongoing issues is what I would think a strong move in the right direction.

Now I am not trying to be a POSTER BOY for AFCI's......I support them, my clients will pay for the increased safety I believe they can bring and so on.....I simply will pass the cost on to the consumer....Hello......EXXON seems to not mind jacking up gas prices around the country all while making records sales and giving fancy bonuses to it's share holders.......so if it costs me more to offer AFCI's I have no problem with it....I am not paying for it.

Now with that said......I support the 2005's NEC requirement of the AFCI....I am not ready to jump on the band wagon for the 2008's version just yet......I believe even more testing needs to take place. I am simply supporting my belief that AFCI's can and will save lives......just like the GFCI has done.

That's all...nothing more...nothing less..

 

[celtic]

Is this because it can't distinguish between a "normal" arc and a hazardous one?

No, they want to get it right...

However, they want it to be the best and right and simply are not going to submit a product to UL testing TOO early as they have plenty of time to continue to work on it, make it better and meet all the demands of critics.

..to meet the demnds of the critics.

LMAO

You know, the critics who have to install it and get to do the callbacks for free.

 

[radiopet]

lol....well callbacks are part of the business...... but I can say this and I am probably " ALONE " in this...I don't have AFCI trip issues and I do homes with 7-8 AFCI's in them already.

So basically I just do not see the major problem in the technology...and it is only getting better and better.


Damn...I am starting to sound like an AFCI Poster Boy.......GESH

 

[celtic]

As for cost.......look I don't for a second think the conversation bears weight on EATON being behind the 2008 potential requirement we are facing....you can blame the NEC and Code Panels for that........

With that said.........I have no problem at all increasing my costs to my clients of $ 500.00- 600.00 for what I feel is added safety.......have no problem with it at all.

That reminds me of something...

That champion shall have the honor - - no, no - - the privilege to go forth and rescue the lovely Princess Fiona from the fiery keep of the dragon. If for any reason the winner is unsuccessful, the first runner-up will take his place and so on and so forth. Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make.

(I hope you can appreciate this )

 

[peter d]

I am not paying for it.

Ahhhh.....but you ARE paying for it. We are all paying for it. We, as consumers, always pay the final bill for things like this.

 

[radiopet]

Ahh....if you truly believe it is an effective safety enhancement I win the consumer wins and the manufacturer wins....they just happen to win more than me....but we all win.

lol.....now Celtic...thats a bold image for a mere $ 500.00 to $ 600.00 price increase...lol

 

[celtic]

Yeah, I know Paul....but once the hamster gets on the wheel

I saw your pic. in your profile...how many times have you seen that movie? (I'm at about 1000 LOL)