AFCI satisfaction poll. Please take a moment to answer.

[peter d]

I find all this defense of NEMA unfounded fellas.

I caution anyone willing to hang their altruistic hat on corporatists to consider many are international , utilize 3rd world sweat shop labor, offshore for tax advantages , proliferate the market with cheap junk which most of us view as having dodged the NRTL bullet, and have little allegiance to the N in NEMA past their 1/4ly profits.

I trust their judgment for our trades integrity about as much as i trust Wall street for our economy.


~RJ~

All good points. I said it before earlier in the other longer AFCI thread going that manufacturers simply are not altruistic. It's laughable to think they are. They are only profit motivated, plain and simple. Their sole reason for existence is to make money and satisfy shareholders.

 

[iwire]

.I am just going to believe that the manufactures are honorable and do the right thing......

We see again and again that manufactures of non-electrical products do what is good for them, even when it hurts consumers.

But you are going to say with a straight face that electrical parts manufactures would not.

That is incedably naive.

Seriously ....

 

[MasterTheNEC]

We see again and again that manufactures of non-electrical products do what is good for them, even when it hurts consumers.

But you are going to say with a straight face that electrical parts manufactures would not.

That is incedably naive.

Seriously ....

I did not say all....but I choose to believe that in the case of AFCI it was not a HUGE conspiracy as you would like to make it out to be....

And that would be "incredibly" naive I think.....possibly that is true.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Alas....I broke my own rule........so I am done with this debate.

With all the data obviously available I am to assume that you believe that the CMP2 members are idiots or sellouts...isn't that really what you want to say iwire?........I happen to disagree........but alas to each his own and yes...guess I am naive...it's better to be called that then what you really want to call me:slaphead:

 

[klineelectric]

The manufacturers nor the cmp will never admit that these things trip for reasons other than what they were intended to trip for, ie: ghost trips due to electronics, led bulbs etc. Admitting such a thing would open them up to class action law suits from every electrical contractor who has had to waste his time and money troubleshooting new installations when there was nothing wrong with said installation. This I believe is the #1 biggest problem with afcis (the ghost trips). For the bph to say there are only a dozen or so of us having problems is as ridiculous as his many posts lobbying for these manufacturers. If this poll could reach every electrical contractor in this great country of ours, the # against the current line of afcis would be staggering. As I said before, the idea of afcis is sound. The reality of what is on the market is anything but. Why would the nec,nema, the manufacturers, cmp or any of the other acronyms be against afcis. None of them are losing money from these deficient products, only us electrical contractors who have no choice but to install them are losing money, respect and customers. Residential jobs pay the least and are now costing us contractors the most. I am NOT a litigious person at all but I would join a class action suit in a heartbeat just to get these things off the market until they perform as advertised.

 

[peter d]

Alas....I broke my own rule........so I am done with this debate.

With all the data obviously available I am to assume that you believe that the CMP2 members are idiots or sellouts...isn't that really what you want to say iwire?........

The CMP was initially deceived by the false information from the manufacturers. However, in subsequent code cycles, they simply doubled down on AFCI rule expansion despite a growing and louder voice against them, as well as numerous code proposals to remove the requirement. They've now had ample opportunity in the last 15 years to examine the very serious deficiencies in these devices. At this point, the CMP is willfully ignorant at best, and complicit in the deception at worst.

 

[romex jockey]

Alas....I broke my own rule........so I am done with this debate.

With all the data obviously available I am to assume that you believe that the CMP2 members are idiots or sellouts...

I do not wish for idiots or sellouts writing the NEC , i wish for responsible people to do so

Unfortunately , responsible people are accountable for their actions or inactions.

And the only way to ensure that is for them to be responsible in every sense, including legally.

As such, my return to your allegation would be, are they covered under sovereign immunity? Or can they be confronted AND held responsible ?

~RJ~

 

[MasterTheNEC]

You people are unreal....lol....sorry your life experiences have left you all so jaded and scorn. I am nearly 100% you all have no clue what it takes to be on a CMP as you throw stones from the peanut gallery..... Good Luck !

 

[iwire]

With all the data obviously available I am to assume that you believe that the CMP2 members are idiots or sellouts...isn't that really what you want to say

You are assuming wrong.

No that is not what I believe, nor what I want to say.

I have said clearly what I believe.

I believe the manufacturers fed the CMPs misinformation and falsehoods about the benifits, results, capabilities and maturity of AFCI technology.

I belive the CMPs are now more or less stuck with this path they have choosen due to human nature and the loss of creadabilty to NFPA that would result if they reverse course.

........I happen to disagree........but alas to each his own and yes...guess I am naive...it's better to be called that then what you really want to call me:slaphead:

You want honesty? OK.

I think you are an egotistical, self absorbed pain in the ass. I realy do.

But at the same time I don't think you are an idiot or a sellout, I think you believe you are doing the right things for the right reasons.

 

[iwire]

You people are unreal....lol....sorry your life experiences have left you all so jaded and scorn.

Paul,

We are are not 'You people' we are individuals with individual ideas and beliefs.

Please do not lump me together with the folks here bad mouthing the CMP members, I happen to believe some of the forum members responding to this thread are in fact nuts in regards to the CMP members.

That said many manufactures from auto makers, to oil companies to chemical companies and on and on, lie, have lied, and will continue to lie. That is not a guess or an opinion that is an outright fact

 

[romex jockey]

Can anyone answer the ratio of foreign vs. domestic NEMA members here?

Can anyone answer the ratio of electricians/EE's vs. that not of our trade CMP members here?

Can anyone answer how many UL / CSPC / NEMA reps sit on CMP's without reclusing themselves during a vote where they might be considered biased?

If anyone considers these sorts of questions 'conspiracy' , they're not (jmho) swingin' for our trade


~RJ~

 

[klineelectric]

Can anyone answer the ratio of foreign vs. domestic NEMA members here?

Can anyone answer the ratio of electricians/EE's vs. that not of our trade CMP members here?

Can anyone answer how many UL / CSPC / NEMA reps sit on CMP's without reclusing themselves during a vote where they might be considered biased?

If anyone considers these sorts of questions 'conspiracy' , they're not (jmho) swingin' for our trade


~RJ~

A conflict of interest for sure.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...

Can anyone answer how many UL / CSPC / NEMA reps sit on CMP's without reclusing themselves during a vote where they might be considered biased?

...

~RJ~

The list of CMP members and the group they represent is clearly shown in the front of the code book. There is no requirement in the consensus method of creating a standard for any one to recluse themselves. That one of the reasons that no one group can have over a thirtd of the panel members. It takes a 2/3s vote of the membership to accept a PI.

 

[romex jockey]

Follow the $$$....

Follow the $$$....

While i'm sure some level of standard exists, i'm not comfortable looking over the NEMA list of company members.

Most are not nationals here, and they are a the major influence of the NEC

As example, the AFCI was a French technology export. (dig & you'll find it)

Their choice of representatives to 'swing for them' obviously following suit

Their ability to pursue canned studies to foist upon us being blatantly evident

Right down to having an NRTL create product standard to fit the product (unprecedented)

'The Market' , as this poll portrays, trumps all who oppose it in sheer $$$.

~RJ~

 

[iwire]

While i'm sure some level of standard exists, i'm not comfortable looking over the NEMA list of company members.

Most are not nationals here, and they are a the major influence of the NEC

As example, the AFCI was a French technology export. (dig & you'll find it)

Their choice of representatives to 'swing for them' obviously following suit

Their ability to pursue canned studies to foist upon us being blatantly evident

Right down to having an NRTL create product standard to fit the product (unprecedented)

'The Market' , as this poll portrays, trumps all who oppose it in sheer $$$.

~RJ~

You still can speak in English can you? :happysad:

 

[mbrooke]

You people are unreal....lol....sorry your life experiences have left you all so jaded and scorn. I am nearly 100% you all have no clue what it takes to be on a CMP as you throw stones from the peanut gallery..... Good Luck !

My life experiences have left me with an open mind, I am willing to look at all sides of something, not what benefits an organization.


I have respect for manufacturing related individuals, but being on CMPs is an automatic conflict of interest. Much like if the CMP was primarily comprised of NAHB, we would end up with code requiring only 1 circuit per home with 1 outlet per room. There has to be a balance.

 

[mbrooke]

The list of CMP members and the group they represent is clearly shown in the front of the code book. There is no requirement in the consensus method of creating a standard for any one to recluse themselves. That one of the reasons that no one group can have over a thirtd of the panel members. It takes a 2/3s vote of the membership to accept a PI.

True, but 1/3 is enough to influence the rest. Even democracy is not immune to tampering. In fact in a democratic system all individuals must be highly educated with unbiased views.

 

[iwire]

Even democracy is not immune to tampering.

Thanks for the surprising news.

In fact in a democratic system all individuals must be highly educated with unbiased views.

I think the US Congress, Senate and White House have thoroughly disproved that.

 

[mbrooke]

Thanks for the surprising news.




I think the US Congress, Senate and White House have thoroughly disproved that.

I those in congress have proved that, they are not all that bright, but its better to keep politics out of this.

 

[romex jockey]

Post your minutes please....

Post your minutes please....

So the analogies follows suit fellas. Are NEMA, the NFPA, the CMP's government agencies?

Government subsidized private biz, Or simply private biz?

I find most governing (i.e.-tax paid) agencies generally follow Robert's Rules

Part of this practice would be The Chair, Vice Chair, Treasurer, and Secretary , board members, etc....

The secretary usually being responsible for minutes

One would think the howl of conspiracy , complicity , or collusion would be shot down rather quickly given the transparency and clarity of such an instrument....

Anyone care to provide them here?

~RJ~