Am I allowed to post here?

[rbalex]

NEC is part of current EE curriculum.

Not necessarily, it depends on the school. What truly frightens me is that the NCEELS has opened the Electrical Engineering PE exam to three categories, only one of which even remotely addresses the NEC. When the original intent of most State's PE laws was public safety, its getting harder to see that it's even a consideration.

 

[Cold Fusion]

If it's inane, why has the thread lasted as long as it has? ....

Same fascination as watching a train wreck:roll:

...I don't like the idea of anyone feeling like the moderators enforce unseen unknown rules of thumbs willy nilly without any thought behind it. ...

I never would have use the term, "willy nilly". And I always thought there was thought behind the decisions. However, charlie b is always quick to point out the forum rule, "... we at this forum reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. "

How would you like us phillistine rabble to translate that?

cf

 

[LarryFine]

If it's inane, why has the thread lasted as long as it has?

Because it is inane, of course!

You ask that like inane is a bad thing.

 

[iwire]

My state follows the model law - as do most states - but possibly not MA. In short (loose translation), if the work involves product of engineering, for hire, and is for buildings (structures) for public access, then a PE is required. What you described in your post on metering CT would be technically illegal, but highly likely that would not be enforced.

First what is the definition of 'a product of engineering'? That sounds pretty vague.


But beyond that I know we can do design build of buildings with public access, or at least I know we commonly do, that may not mean it is within the law.

 

[SEO]

Anybody ever see an electrical contractor design electrical services, electrical systems within buildings (churches, restaurants etc.) and have a PE stamp and sign?

 

[jdsmith]

NEC is part of current EE curriculum.

Not in most engineering science programs (as opposed to engineering technology programs.) ABET accredited electrical engineering science degrees are required to have certain doses of electric circuits, electronics, linear signals, electromagentics, and solid state theory in addition to mathematics, physics, etc. The requirements for an engineering science degree are based on theoretical study and laboratory experiments to demonstrate the theories, not application of the theories to the real world. These requirements are hard enough to pack into a 4 year degree program that most universities cannot find the time to address applying the theories to real life.

An electrical engineering technology degree does not focus on theoretical science, but only the science that is required to understand the phenomena most people will observe in the real world. The electric circuits courses are very similar to the engineering science degree, but the rest of the courses are somewhat different. Engineering technology programs still cover electronics and electromagnetics but don't dive into how to design a transistor or diode, rather how to design a circuit with them and how to troubleshoot the circuit. In general the theoretical part of the material is removed and replaced with instruction and hands-on experience that more directly applies to someone working in industry.

My college-educated electrical coworkers in a refinery have a mixture of engineering science and engineering technology degrees. In reality all of us have to learn a lot of material outside of what our formal education covered. I had to learn the NEC, some NESC, what type of MV cable termination is best, when and how to Hi-pot a cable, etc. Some of my coworkers with engineering technology degrees had to learn how fault current is calculated, how to do a coordination study, and some of the finer points of industrial-class protective relaying.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Anybody ever see an electrical contractor design electrical services, electrical systems within buildings (churches, restaurants etc.) and have a PE stamp and sign?

Not from a PE that has scruples.

 

[George Stolz]

Not from a PE that has scruples.

I was going to say, "Not for less than he would have drawn and stamped his own work."

 

[iwire]

Do I know of an EE that stamps prints without going over them?

No.

Do I know of EEs that will stamp plans that where produced by someone else but the EE has spent time going over?

Yes.

 

[mayanees]

Anybody ever see an electrical contractor design electrical services, electrical systems within buildings (churches, restaurants etc.) and have a PE stamp and sign?

As long as the PE is in "responsible charge" of the Electrcial Contractor's design, and can validate &/or modify the design as seen fit, this is an acceptable practice.

John M

 

[hardworkingstiff]

In NC,

C. Licensee's Seal
Upon approval for licensure as a Professional Engineer in North Carolina, each person is required to obtain a Seal of the design authorized by the Board, showing the licensee's name and license number. Each licensee is required by the provisions of the law to possess and use that seal on all final drawings, plans, specifications, and reports performed by the licensee. The licensee is prohibited from sealing any engineering work not done under the licensee's responsible charge (direct control and personal supervision).

http://www.ncbels.org/reg-pe.htm#MiscInfo

I think the arguement would be what constitutes direct control and personal supervision. I don't believe an EC making drawings would be considered under the licensee's responsible charge.

 

[mayanees]

In NC,

http://www.ncbels.org/reg-pe.htm#MiscInfo

I think the arguement would be what constitutes direct control and personal supervision. I don't believe an EC making drawings would be considered under the licensee's responsible charge.

That's exactly the argument - "direct control and personal supervision". As long as the PE can own the design, and make changes where necessary to meet code requirements, that's considered to be under the licensee's responsible charge.
I'm on an Engineering Law Enforcement and Ethics committee in DE, and this topic comes up often. It of course means that the design is correct, and it also requires that the PE knows the material.
If the PE stamped the design without adequate review, that's another story. But the design would probably have to be flawed in order for the PE to get called out for it.

John M

 

[zog]

That's exactly the argument - "direct control and personal supervision". As long as the PE can own the design, and make changes where necessary to meet code requirements, that's considered to be under the licensee's responsible charge.
I'm on an Engineering Law Enforcement and Ethics committee in DE, and this topic comes up often. It of course means that the design is correct, and it also requires that the PE knows the material.
If the PE stamped the design without adequate review, that's another story. But the design would probably have to be flawed in order for the PE to get called out for it.

John M

I agree with this concept, however in the case of arc flash analysis I have seen some PE's "review" and stamp studies and they don't really understand them, at least they were not capable of doing them on thier own. Older guys just were not required to know anything about arc flash when they passed thier exams.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

So if the PE is going to thoroughly review the design that an EC prepares, how much money is really saved? I bet the EC takes longer to prepare the drawing than the PE does, but.... PE's make much more than EC's do.

I got 2 estimates last week on some stamped drawing work. The job was changing out a 3-phase service to a single-phase service. All that really needed to be done was a load calculation and a riser diagram, maybe a location on a crude site plan.

The PE that did the design on the rework (no service modifications at that time) 2-years ago quoted $3,800. Another PE that I sat down with the drawings and showed him pictures and what we wanted to do quoted $1,200. I sat down with the 1st PE also to discuss the plan of action and showed pictures.

I've made 3 trips to the site to meet with PoCo and the electrical inspector and if I give a price that is perceived to be reasonable, I will get the job. I bet the customer will be shopping my price and I should know in a week or so.

 

[iMuse97]

So if the PE is going to thoroughly review the design that an EC prepares, how much money is really saved? /quote]

I worked for a company (100+ on payroll; 20-30 JWs; some operators, etc.) in which the owner/boss was neither an engineer or an electrician, but he did all the company's engineering and the P.E. stamps were received under the supervision of an engineering company in town.

The boss saved a lot of money, and because they knew his work and the kind of projects he did (municipal water & sewer, mid-sized manufacturing), the engineering company was happy to get these supervision jobs from us--easy money for them, too.

 

[charlie b]

However, charlie b is always quick to point out the forum rule, "... we at this forum reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. "

How would you like us phillistine rabble to translate that?

As slander! In well over 12,000 posts, I believe that I have never once pointed out that rule. (What never? No never! What never? Well, hardly ever!) Truly, I cannot recall ever having done such a thing, and I am certain I do not deserve the "always quick to point out" statement. You astound me!

My earlier point was not that an engineer cannot safely install electrical work, but rather there is no reason to automatically expect that one can. If person one says, "I am an EE," and if person two says, "well, then you must be able to do electrical installation work," then I submit that person two has made an invalid inference.

 

[iwire]

As slander! In well over 12,000 posts, I believe that I have never once pointed out that rule.

Maybe he is confused with me.

I have pointed out that rule at least a couple times in my time as a moderator.

 

[roger]

I think I give more than I get out of this forum.

Might someone be a little full of themself? :grin:

Roger

 

[dkarst]

NEC is part of current EE curriculum.

I'm sure there may be exceptions but in ~ 30 years of mentoring technical professionals with BSEE and higher degrees, I cannot remember one that had received any training on NEC (maybe a passing mention like "The NEC governs safe installations of...." as part of a BSEE program. I've interviewed students at campuses across the nation and in addition spoke with EE faculty and the ABET criteria is screwed down so tightly these days that any university is just trying to fit the "must haves" into a reasonable curriculum. The situation may be different for a 4-year technology degrees but in many states, holding a BSEET degree means more experience is required to sit for PE exam and you have more work to show "degree equivalency". Even in a "Power System emphasis" BSEE curriculum where you may cover fault calcs, symmetrical components, line compensation, and power electronics, I don't think you're going to get any NEC exposure. My own personal experience mirrors Charlie's, i.e. BSEE/MSEE from top schools and no coverage of NEC.

As a previous poster pointed out, with the PE examination having moved from breadth, to breadth+ depth, to just depth in the last 10 years, it is entirely possible for an electrical PE to have taken the EE computers PE exam and not know a transformer from a bode plot. Not claiming any of this is right or wrong, just the facts.

 

[cschmid]

We talked about that (debated, actually) several years ago. The consensus is that we should not do that. The reasoning, weak as it may be, is that if answering a DIY question risks a lawsuit (as in, "you should have told my client that he needed to xxx, when you were answering his question about yyy"), there is also a risk of a lawsuit if we suggest another Internet information source (as in, "you recommended that site to my client, and my client received poor and insufficient information, and you should have known that that site would not give enough good information. . . ").

please loose the bold charlie I do need the lecture :grin: wait maybe I do.....

I can not believe I read this whole thread my goss I must be bored..But i do know charlie speaks the truth with this statement. We must be careful on this site as it is written proof.

Now back to the can you smell the beef..I believe it is cooking up some stuff here.

I like the OP original question and he was honest and up front we should thank him for that. we should hope he can shed some light on technical questions in the future.

Oh by the way have a greatday...:grin: