Another receptacle location thread/poll

[charlie b]

Charlie, I get that you start with the declaration the this glass thingy is not wall. . .Help me with the basis for this declaration.

It doesn't look like one. That's all I have, and I know it's not much. Perhaps it's the absence of any studs or other vertical support members. Perhaps it just looks like a window, less the frame, or a door, less the knob. Perhaps it that it appears to be performing the function of a safety barrier, not a function of structural support, or of room definition, or of aesthetics. I wouldn?t be inclined to try to hang a photograph on this thingy, and I am fairly egoistic about displaying my photographs. I would not feel inclined to set a chair and reading lamp next to this thingy, as the view through glass to a stair opening would not give me the feeling of serenity needed to sit read. Walls exist to separate rooms, to establish the boundaries of a space, and to help define the purpose of a space. This thingy does none of those things.

I am guessing that if this were my design, and if I used that reason as the basis for not putting in a receptacle, and if Pierre were the AHJ, that reason is not going to save me a red tag.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . if pierre were the ahj, that reason is not going to save me a red tag. :d

lol

 

[pfalcon]

Charlie, I get that you start with the declaration the this glass thingy is not wall. . .Help me with the basis for this declaration.

In support of this, I would also ask others why they think it is not a divider. The NEC refers to both "walls" and "fixed room dividers". If this is not a "fixed divider" then what is a fixed divider?

 

[steelersman]

If the fixed side of a sliding glass door is considered wall space, I would consider this wall space as well.

Good point. Charlie is saying that it doesn't seperate 2 rooms so it isn't a wall, but would he say the same thing about the exterior walls not needing receptacles becaue they are not seperating 2 rooms but only seperating inside from out?

I vote yes. I've always been required to count the banisters as wall space that divide a sunroom from a living room and had to install floor boxes.

 

[M. D.]

In Ma. it is the regulated that decide what a space is,... If this were mine,.. there would be a hallway space between the the top of one set of stairs and the bottom of the other.. basically the route depicted by the footie prints:smile:

 

[charlie b]

If this is not a "fixed divider" then what is a fixed divider?

You left out one word: Room. The phrase is ?fixed room divider.? What, then, is a ?fixed room divider?? I would say that it is something that divides a room, or that it separates one room from another. This glass thingy does neither of these. A stairwell is a hole in the floor, not a room into itself. As I said earlier, and as I said in the substantiation for my related 2011 code change proposal, if you look at the architectural plans for the second floor, you will not see a room with a separation, nor will you see two rooms with this glass thingy between them.

 

[steelersman]

That only counts for exterior walls.

where does the NEC say that?

 

[pfalcon]

Good point. Charlie is saying that it doesn't seperate 2 rooms so it isn't a wall, but would he say the same thing about the exterior walls not needing receptacles becaue they are not seperating 2 rooms but only seperating inside from out?

I vote yes. I've always been required to count the banisters as wall space that divide a sunroom from a living room and had to install floor boxes.

Um, No, Charlie is saying it is not a wall because it is only a divider.
He is saying a divider only needs a receptacle if it divides two rooms.
Stairs are not considered a room therefore it does not take a receptacle on a divider.

He would say differently on an outside wall because 210:52(A)(2)(2) specifically calls for receptacles on dividers on outside walls.

 

[M. D.]

Charlie,. could you post your proposal??

 

[charlie b]

Charlie is saying that it doesn't separate 2 rooms so it isn't a wall. . . .

That is not what I am saying. I am saying it is not a wall, but I don?t base that on the question of whether it separates 2 rooms. I base that, as I said earlier, on the simple fact that it does not look like a wall. I am saying that if it doesn?t separate 2 rooms, or separate one room into two distinctive spaces, then it is not a ?fixed room divider,? and therefore does not count as ?wall space,? for the purposes of locating receptacles.

. . . but would he say the same thing about the exterior walls not needing receptacles because they are not separating 2 rooms but only separating inside from out?

I would not say that either. The exterior wall is a WALL, so therefore the bit about ?fixed room divider? is not relevant.

Let me ask you to take another look at post #74. The first question is, do you have a wall? Failing that, the next question is, do you have one of the two other things (fixed exterior panel, fixed room divider)?

 

[steelersman]

Um, No, Charlie is saying it is not a wall because it is only a divider.
He is saying a divider only needs a receptacle if it divides two rooms.
Stairs are not considered a room therefore it does not take a receptacle on a divider.

He would say differently on an outside wall because 210:52(A)(2)(2) specifically calls for receptacles on dividers on outside walls.

i know he is saying it is not a wall. RE-READ my post.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie,. could you post your proposal??

I'd have to find it first. I have a copy, in Word, that I could paste here. But it would be better if I could post a link to the NFPA record, especially if the CMP has posted its ROP on this item. I'll get back to you.

 

[cycotcskir]

where does the NEC say that?

210.52 a.(2)(2)

 

[cycotcskir]

Charlie,

You keep hammering home the issue that the glass doesn't divide within a room and doesn't divide a room from another room, but why don't you subscribe to the notion that a divider can divide a room from something else (other than something defined as a room)?

 

[wirebender]

where does the NEC say that?

(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls,
excluding sliding panels

 

[wirebender]

Charlie,

You keep hammering home the issue that the glass doesn't divide within a room and doesn't divide a room from another room, but why don't you subscribe to the notion that a divider can divide a room from something else (other than something defined as a room)?

It says divide not separate.
If I divide something it results in two smaller pieces of the same thing.
If I divide money with you, we both have money.
If I divide a sandwich with you, we both have sandwich.
If I divide a room it results in two sections of room.

 

[pfalcon]

i know he is saying it is not a wall. RE-READ my post.

Charlie is saying that it doesn't seperate 2 rooms so it isn't a wall

Um, No, Charlie is saying it is not a wall because it is only a divider.

but I don?t base that on the question of whether it separates 2 rooms.

Charlie looks at these panels and thinks "This is not a wall". There is no other qualifier.
I look at these panels and think "This is a divider". There is no other qualifier.

 

[electricmanscott]

Words are funny.

 

[pfalcon]

Charlie,

You keep hammering home the issue that the glass doesn't divide within a room and doesn't divide a room from another room, but why don't you subscribe to the notion that a divider can divide a room from something else (other than something defined as a room)?

He does subscribe to the notion that it can divide a room from something else. In this case it divides a room from a stairwell which is not a room.

But as per 210.52(A)(2)(2), dividers are required to have receptacles when they are on external walls
-or-
As per 210.52(A)(2)(3), dividers are required to have receptacles when they divide rooms.

No requirement is made to provide internal dividers with receptacles that do not divide rooms.

 

[charlie b]

I don?t think the CMP action has been posted on the Internet yet. So here is my proposal. The forum?s word processor won?t accept strike thrus, so I wrote the word ?delete? next to the two places at which I proposed deleting text. The underlined words are the ones I proposed to add. I hope that is clear enough to make it readable.

The Log # is 1509, NEC P02.

PROPOSAL: 210.52(A)(2)(3)

(3) The space (DELETE afforded) occupied by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters (DELETE or railings).
(4) Railings that establish a boundary between two areas or two elevations on the same floor level, or that provide a safety barrier between floor levels, but excluding staircase handrails.

SUBSTANTIATION

This corrects an error in the use of the English language. There are no published definitions of the word ?afford? and its derivative form ?afforded? that fit into the context in which ?afforded by? appears in 210.52(A)(2)(3). The nearest definition might be, ?to furnish or supply,? but even that does not fit the intended context. Thus, the current wording has no meaning, and it cannot therefore be enforced.

A simple substitution of the word ?occupied? for ?afforded? would correct the language error, but would create a new ambiguity. That is because the ?space occupied by a railing? could be argued to include only the top and bottom rails and the posts that connect them, not the open air between the posts.

Bar-type counters are often used as the boundaries between two separate rooms on the same floor level. Railings are not. Railings frequently separate rooms with at least a one-step difference in height. Even more frequently, they establish a safety barrier between a second floor landing and the open living spaces below. These two cases are not addressed in the present wording, as the railing would not comprise a ?room divider.? For example, look at the architectural plans of the second floor landing, and you will not see two rooms with a railing between them. Rather, you see one room, with a railing at one edge, and thus the railing is not a ?room divider.? The intent of this code article may well be to require floor-mounted receptacles along this railing, but the present wording does not require them. The additional words shown are needed to clarify that a railing is a ?wall space.?