Another receptacle location thread/poll

Another receptacle location thread/poll

  • Yes, the NEC does require a receptacle here

    Votes: 59 74.7%

  • No, the NEC does not require a receptacle here

    Votes: 13 16.5%

  • Good question, I am not sure

    Votes: 7 8.9%
  • Total voters
    79
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charlie b said:
This corrects an error in the use of the English language. There are no published definitions of the word ?afford? and its derivative form ?afforded? that fit into the context in which ?afforded by? appears in 210.52(A)(2)(3). The nearest definition might be, ?to furnish or supply,? but even that does not fit the intended context. Thus, the current wording has no meaning, and it cannot therefore be enforced.

A simple substitution of the word ?occupied? for ?afforded? would correct the language error, but would create a new ambiguity. That is because the ?space occupied by a railing? could be argued to include only the top and bottom rails and the posts that connect them, not the open air between the posts.
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Charlie
I was thinking and thinking, so finally I went to the dictionary...

Afford
2: to make available, give forth, or provide naturally or envitably
 
M. D. said:
Thought I would add a link to it . . . It took forever to open ,.. not sure why
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It took forever because it is a 41 meg file. I have already downloaded it, but I had not taken the time to read the related proposals by the other submitters.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Afford 2: to make available, give forth, or provide naturally or envitably
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A railing does not make anything available; it just sits there. It neither gives nor gives forth anything. It doesn't provide anything, naturally or otherwise. I still say the word "afforded" does not belong in this NEC article.
 
charlie b said:
A railing does not make anything available; it just sits there. It neither gives nor gives forth anything. It doesn't provide anything, naturally or otherwise. I still say the word "afforded" does not belong in this NEC article.
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It doesn't 'afford' you protection from falling off the other side and bonkin' your noodle?
 
480sparky said:
It doesn't 'afford' you protection from falling off the other side and bonkin' your noodle?
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The railing might, but the space won't. :smile: The wording is, "the space afforded by . . . railings." In what sense does a railing afford space? None that I can imagine. I have disliked the use of that word in this article for some time, and I finally got around to making an attempt to erradicate it. Time will tell if I succeed. :cool:
 
charlie b said:
A railing does not make anything available; it just sits there. It neither gives nor gives forth anything. It doesn't provide anything, naturally or otherwise. I still say the word "afforded" does not belong in this NEC article.
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Ahhh, emotion recollected in tranquility. . .I fondly recall some of our previous banter on this word with respect to its use by the NEC in 210.52. . . .:grin:

When I assist in the design of a room, one of the necessary considerations (to me, as Master Electrician) is whether furnishings may reasonably be placed along this railing. . .I know that you are applying the idea of "wall space" to the surface area of a railing that has mostly air in its construction, but I look at it more as a construction that "attracts" an occupants furnishings the way a structural wall, two feet wide or wider, would. To me, such a railing "makes available, gives forth, or provides naturally or envitably" the "wall space" inherent in a structural wall.

The occupant will furnish, and I will design outlets for that furnishing.

I believe "afforded", as used, suits the Article 210.52(A)(2)(3).
 
charlie b said:

The railing might, but the space won't. :smile: The wording is, "the space afforded by . . . railings." In what sense does a railing afford space? None that I can imagine. I have disliked the use of that word in this article for some time, and I finally got around to making an attempt to erradicate it. Time will tell if I succeed. :cool:
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I think that "afforded" is referring to the "wallspace" or "delineating space" created by the installation of the railing.

Where I am from, this is normal to refer to things in this manner, but different parts of the country, maybe not. Maybe it has nothing to do with the "Where" I'm from, it might be more how I was taught... or wasn't taught ;)

In any case, it seems perfectly normal to me. The proposed change is pretty clear also, but I'm thinking that the CMP may see the issue as " if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
 
crwill said:
Maybe it's a window overlooking the stairway.
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HA!!!

I like that.;)



As we ponder through this thread, I can imagine how hard it really is to write a code requirement and make it actually say what one wants it to say. Very difficult in the least.


Next time I try to write a requirement, it will be for 1st graders whose command of the english language is just a little ahead of mine.:grin:
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
As we ponder through this thread, I can imagine how hard it really is to write a code requirement and make it actually say what one wants it to say. Very difficult in the least.
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I just got done writing some Design Standards changes (AHJ). I only wrote about 12-13, but there were so many changes I made while pondering ALL possible circumstances and associated wording issues. There were additions, rewrites... and "all that jazz". I talked the issues over with others for input, wrote out the Existing Standard, Proposed Changes, and Justification and just kept finding new things to say or change.

I finally submitted it, then I noticed some more areas where I could have been more concise :( Oh Well.
 
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