Ansul System

[Little Bill]

I did some wiring for a coffee/sandwich/donut/ice cream shop. Most of their equipment (used) is 3?. I actually was just there to do the 3? stuff as the guy that was doing the rest of the wiring didn't know much about 3? wiring or equipment.
Anyway, the guy called me back and asked if I would wire his Ansul system. I told him I had never had any dealings with them. He told me the rep/tech from the Ansul mfg said he would "talk me through it" over the phone.

Can anyone give me a quick and dirty for installing these systems? I know just a little about them, but have never installed them.
I just want to know what to expect should the rep not be able to explain it well enough so that I can follow his instructions.

Thanks!

 

[aftershock]

The system has a control box with a micro switch. This switch functions as both NO and NC (Normally open and normally closed)
You will use this switch to control the electrical within the vent hood area. The switch is meant to be used to shut off all electrical in this area except the exhaust fan(s). It also used to automatically turn on the exhaust fans. Your circuits for the vent hood and any electrical contained within that area will be controlled by contactors which the coils will be controlled by the micro switch.

I beleive there are hood systems with all of this built in, but I have only done this "old school"

 

[__dan]

I did some wiring for a coffee/sandwich/donut/ice cream shop. Most of their equipment (used) is 3?. I actually was just there to do the 3? stuff as the guy that was doing the rest of the wiring didn't know much about 3? wiring or equipment.
Anyway, the guy called me back and asked if I would wire his Ansul system. I told him I had never had any dealings with them. He told me the rep/tech from the Ansul mfg said he would "talk me through it" over the phone.

Can anyone give me a quick and dirty for installing these systems? I know just a little about them, but have never installed them.
I just want to know what to expect should the rep not be able to explain it well enough so that I can follow his instructions.

Thanks!

You should get some more responses, but the Ansul is a pressurized automatic fire extinguisher in the grill exhaust hood. When it discharges, there's a two pole micro switch in the cabinet. You will want to trip the building fire alarm with one pole and shut down equipment power with the other pole (usually operate shunt trip breakers). I forget, but there's a code for what to do with the hood powered ventilation. I would ask the fire marshall. There can be supply air (make up air) fans in the hood as well as the exhaust fan. Probably you would want to dump the make up air and continue to run the exhaust, but there's a code on what to do.

Something like that. Don't underbid it before you know how much control wirng it is. It can get expensive. Consult Ansul and the fire marshall for their requirements.

 

[nhfire77]

I would be hesitant to do that over the phone, either way get a manual first.

Most ansul systems will have a single control head. Inside there will be 1 or 2 SPST form C relays (a 'micro switch'). There is a physical bar that will depress the micro switch when the fusible links melt or the manual handle is pulled.

There are multiple configurations possible. At a minimum, it will kill all electrical equipment through the switch. The switch could be wired normally open, close on discharge. It could feed control voltage to a shunt trip.

Also the make up air can must shut down, the exhaust fan should keep going ( local rules excepted).


Also, a mechanically held open gas valve should shut when it dumps. Some places will have a solenoid valve. That valve's power may be controlled through the switch.

Finally a fire alarm, if present, would be tripped by one of the micro switches.

You cannot splice or make any connections in the control head. The micro switches should have leads long enough nipple into a box to splice in. Typically, there is only one 1/2" ko for all wiring line and low voltage.

If, you've never done one, tread carefully, especially if the system is charged. When removing the control head cover, you could dump it. That's always fun

 

[Little Bill]

Thanks guys! Keep em coming!

 

[zbang]

Google "ansul system wiring diagram", you'll even find some links to a place called "Mike Holt" (seriously, there are manuals and pictures of wiring diagrams online)

 

[gadfly56]

Installation manuals can be hard to come by; Ansul, like Kidde, Range Guard, Pyro-Chem, Amerex, and Buckeye allow only authorized dealers to do the install. If the Ansul rep is willing to talk you through it, he should be willing to send you a few PDF's of the pertinent sections of the installation manual as well. The Ansul system is NOT pressurized, by the way. The agent tank is at atmospheric pressure. When the Auto-Man controller/regulator is activated, it punctures the metal seal on a pressurized cartridge which then pressurizes the agent tank(s).

Typical functions controlled by the mechanical control head via micro switch: activation of fire alarm and/or local notification appliance, shutdown of all power under the hood (lights, electrical appliances, gas appliances with electronic controls or "spark start"), start up of exhaust system, shut down of solenoid gas valve, and shutdown of make up air (for hoods with MUA built in, not for whole kitchen make up air).

The control head will accomodate up to four (4) micro switches. DO NOT MAKE CONNECTIONS INSIDE THE CONTROL ENCLOSURE. The enclosure is not rated as a junction box. The micro switches are rated to 20 amps resistive and up to about 1/2 HP at 120VAC or 1-1/2 at 240VAC. Any loads that don't exceed these parameters can be controlled directly with the micro switch. Others will require the us of a contactor or shunt trip breaker.

I prefer using contactors. They can be configured as fail safe, and are much to be preferred IMHO. If the coil voltage fails on a shunt trip breaker you won't know about it until you really need it (very bad) or you test it (much less bad).

As far as the exhaust system being on or off during or after activation, the Ansul system doesn't care since it's been listed under both conditions. Hood make up air definitely has to go off, however.

If you have a more specific question, I can give you a more specific answer.

 

[Little Bill]

Installation manuals can be hard to come by; Ansul, like Kidde, Range Guard, Pyro-Chem, Amerex, and Buckeye allow only authorized dealers to do the install. If the Ansul rep is willing to talk you through it, he should be willing to send you a few PDF's of the pertinent sections of the installation manual as well. The Ansul system is NOT pressurized, by the way. The agent tank is at atmospheric pressure. When the Auto-Man controller/regulator is activated, it punctures the metal seal on a pressurized cartridge which then pressurizes the agent tank(s).

Typical functions controlled by the mechanical control head via micro switch: activation of fire alarm and/or local notification appliance, shutdown of all power under the hood (lights, electrical appliances, gas appliances with electronic controls or "spark start"), start up of exhaust system, shut down of solenoid gas valve, and shutdown of make up air (for hoods with MUA built in, not for whole kitchen make up air).

The control head will accomodate up to four (4) micro switches. DO NOT MAKE CONNECTIONS INSIDE THE CONTROL ENCLOSURE. The enclosure is not rated as a junction box. The micro switches are rated to 20 amps resistive and up to about 1/2 HP at 120VAC or 1-1/2 at 240VAC. Any loads that don't exceed these parameters can be controlled directly with the micro switch. Others will require the us of a contactor or shunt trip breaker.

I prefer using contactors. They can be configured as fail safe, and are much to be preferred IMHO. If the coil voltage fails on a shunt trip breaker you won't know about it until you really need it (very bad) or you test it (much less bad).

As far as the exhaust system being on or off during or after activation, the Ansul system doesn't care since it's been listed under both conditions. Hood make up air definitely has to go off, however.

If you have a more specific question, I can give you a more specific answer.

Thanks Gadfly, when you say things can be controlled by the micro switch directly, wouldn't they need some sort of contactor anyway in order for the micro switch to control it?
I guess I didn't understand the part about loads that exceed the rating of the switch needing a shunt trip or contactor if they would have to have one anyway.

You may be saying the micro switch can handle the line voltage of the item to be controlled, and is just being used as a pass through ahead of the normal switch.
IDK, maybe I'm not thinking about this right.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

A lot of good information has been on the ansul system but if this is a new hood it will require to autimatically turn on the exhuast hood when the cooking appliances are on. This is generally done by the use of a heat sensor in each of the exhaust vents.

 

[renosteinke]

I believe it is NFPA 96, with a title along the lines of 'Commercial Cooking Hood Extinguishing Systems,' or some such, that governs these things. It's worth spending the $30 or so and getting a copy of the slim document- and reading it!

There's all of maybe two pages that interest you. The standard defines what must happen, when. Just as important, it defines what is NOT required.

A quick summary:
1) All 'sources of ignition under the hood' need to be shut off. This means all lights, receptacles, and appliances. If the appliances have pilot lights, there will be a 'gas reset' control in addition to a gas valve controlled by the system;

2) If there's no alarm system, you need to hang a bell; and,

3) What effect the system has on the HVAC equipment is open to argument. Read the standard and talk to your AHJ before forming an opinion.

 

[fmtjfw]

I believe it is NFPA 96, with a title along the lines of 'Commercial Cooking Hood Extinguishing Systems,' or some such, that governs these things. It's worth spending the $30 or so and getting a copy of the slim document- and reading it!

There's all of maybe two pages that interest you. The standard defines what must happen, when. Just as important, it defines what is NOT required.

A quick summary:
1) All 'sources of ignition under the hood' need to be shut off. This means all lights, receptacles, and appliances. If the appliances have pilot lights, there will be a 'gas reset' control in addition to a gas valve controlled by the system;

2) If there's no alarm system, you need to hang a bell; and,

3) What effect the system has on the HVAC equipment is open to argument. Read the standard and talk to your AHJ before forming an opinion.

You can also read it online -- for free -- You have to sign a simple license agreement and maybe give them your email address.

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/aboutthecodes.asp?docnum=96

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks Gadfly, when you say things can be controlled by the micro switch directly, wouldn't they need some sort of contactor anyway in order for the micro switch to control it?
I guess I didn't understand the part about loads that exceed the rating of the switch needing a shunt trip or contactor if they would have to have one anyway.

You may be saying the micro switch can handle the line voltage of the item to be controlled, and is just being used as a pass through ahead of the normal switch.
IDK, maybe I'm not thinking about this right.

You don't necessarily need to use a contactor with a micro switch. Pretend the micro switch is a light switch, put it in the hot leg between the line and load.

Also, Rick's point about turning on the exhaust automatically is a good one, though not directly related to Ansul systems. Be aware that the most suitable (materials of construction, durability, temperature range) thermostats, Kidde-Fenwal Detect-A-Fire models, are only good to 5 amps direct. You will almost certainly need to use a contactor to kick the fans on automatically (wire them in parallel with the exhaust switch).

 

[fmtjfw]

I did some wiring for a coffee/sandwich/donut/ice cream shop. Most of their equipment (used) is 3?. I actually was just there to do the 3? stuff as the guy that was doing the rest of the wiring didn't know much about 3? wiring or equipment.
Anyway, the guy called me back and asked if I would wire his Ansul system. I told him I had never had any dealings with them. He told me the rep/tech from the Ansul mfg said he would "talk me through it" over the phone.

Can anyone give me a quick and dirty for installing these systems? I know just a little about them, but have never installed them.
I just want to know what to expect should the rep not be able to explain it well enough so that I can follow his instructions.

Thanks!

JFW's design principles for ANSUL system connections.

This assumes several things:
2 micro switches
Exhaust hood fan

The principles:
1) Design for fail-safe
2) Turn on exhaust fan
3) Turn off ventilation fan, if present
4) Trip power to breakers feeding under the hood
5) Release gas valve, if present
6) Separate alarm circuit from control circuit

One microswitch is used to close the fire alarm circuit. If the alarm circuit is a 4 wire system, loop in and out to the microswitch, do not tee-tap.

Use the normally closed contact on the second microswitch to hold relay K closed.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to force the exhaust contactor X to close.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to trip breakers. (The only part of the control system that is not fail-safe. A fail-safe approach requires a contactor feeding all the loads under the hood. Shunt trips are inherently NOT fail-safe)
Use a normally opened K relay contact in series with the control for ventilation contactor V to to open it.
Use a normally opened K relay contact to hold the gas valve open.

I also provide a normally closed K relay contact, with a strapping option, that defeats the overload contact that would trip the X contactor on overload during alarm conditions. This is known as “run to destruction” and can be turned on or off with a wire across two connection block contacts.

 

[jap]

JFW's design principles for ANSUL system connections.

This assumes several things:
2 micro switches
Exhaust hood fan

The principles:
1) Design for fail-safe
2) Turn on exhaust fan
3) Turn off ventilation fan, if present
4) Trip power to breakers feeding under the hood
5) Release gas valve, if present
6) Separate alarm circuit from control circuit

One microswitch is used to close the fire alarm circuit. If the alarm circuit is a 4 wire system, loop in and out to the microswitch, do not tee-tap.

Use the normally closed contact on the second microswitch to hold relay K closed.Use a normally closed K relay contact to force the exhaust contactor X to close.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to trip breakers. (The only part of the control system that is not fail-safe. A fail-safe approach requires a contactor feeding all the loads under the hood. Shunt trips are inherently NOT fail-safe)
Use a normally opened K relay contact in series with the control for ventilation contactor V to to open it.
Use a normally opened K relay contact to hold the gas valve open.

I also provide a normally closed K relay contact, with a strapping option, that defeats the overload contact that would trip the X contactor on overload during alarm conditions. This is known as ?run to destruction? and can be turned on or off with a wire across two connection block contacts.

This is a good description, although it would be a little less confusing if it were to say "Use the Normally Closed microswitch on the second microswitch to "Enerigize or Acitivate" Relay K.

Seeing as how Relay K has both Normally Open and Normally Closed contacts on it,Your not actually "Closing" it, your activating or energizing it.

Also, the control above is describing the state of the individual contacts after the Ansul System has been "Pulled or Activated"
not in its "Armed" state.

 

[fmtjfw]

This is a good description, although it would be a little less confusing if it were to say "Use the Normally Closed microswitch on the second microswitch to "Enerigize or Acitivate" Relay K.

Seeing as how Relay K has both Normally Open and Normally Closed contacts on it,Your not actually "Closing" it, your activating or energizing it.

Also, the control above is describing the state of the individual contacts after the Ansul System has been "Pulled or Activated"
not in its "Armed" state.

The description of the contacts for the microswitch for the control part of the system is for the ANSUL in its NON-tripped state. The normally closed microswitch contact de-energized relay K on alarm. The relay K is norrmally operated (better word than closed). The description of the contacts on the relay K are the ones you should see on its labelling. When I say normally closed contact I mean the contact that is closed when relay K is de-energized.

Because we are using fail-safe techniques (that operate as though an alarm state exists if the relay K relay coil fails, the wiring to the relay fails, or if the power to relay K fails), we end up doing "double negatives" which is awkward to describe.

 

[fmtjfw]

Revised version: better?

Revised version: better?

This is a good description, although it would be a little less confusing if it were to say "Use the Normally Closed microswitch on the second microswitch to "Enerigize or Acitivate" Relay K.

Seeing as how Relay K has both Normally Open and Normally Closed contacts on it,Your not actually "Closing" it, your activating or energizing it.

Also, the control above is describing the state of the individual contacts after the Ansul System has been "Pulled or Activated"
not in its "Armed" state.

JFW's design principles for ANSUL system connections.

This assumes several things:
2 micro switches
Exhaust hood fan

The principles:
1) Design for fail-safe
2) Turn on exhaust fan
3) Turn off ventilation fan, if present
4) Trip power to breakers feeding under the hood
5) Release gas valve, if present
6) Separate alarm circuit from control circuit

The microswitch contacts are described in terms of their NON-alarm state.
One microswitch's normally-open contact is used to close the fire alarm circuit. If the alarm circuit is a 4 wire system, loop in and out to the microswitch, do not tee-tap.

The contacts on the relay K are described in its NON-energized state.
Use the normally closed contact on the second microswitch to energize relay K.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to force the exhaust contactor X to close.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to trip breakers. (The only part of the control system that is not fail-safe. A fail-safe approach requires a contactor feeding all the loads under the hood. Shunt trips are inherently NOT failsafe)
Use a normally opened K relay contact in series with the control for ventilation contact V to to open it.
Use a normally opened K relay contact to hold the gas valve open.

I also provide a normally closed K relay contact, with a strapping option, that defeats the overload contact that would trip the X contactor on overload during alarm conditions. This is known as ?run to destruction? and can be turned on or off with a wire across two connection block contacts.

The normal operating controls for the exhaust fan can be a simple switch in parallel with the relay K normally closed contact. If the exhaust fan uses a ?start/stop? seal-in circuit, the relay K contact should be in parallel with combination of the start and stop buttons.

The normal operating controls for the vent fan should be in series with the relay K normally-open contact.

 

[jap]

JFW's design principles for ANSUL system connections.

This assumes several things:
2 micro switches
Exhaust hood fan

The principles:
1) Design for fail-safe
2) Turn on exhaust fan
3) Turn off ventilation fan, if present
4) Trip power to breakers feeding under the hood
5) Release gas valve, if present
6) Separate alarm circuit from control circuit

The microswitch contacts are described in terms of their NON-alarm state.
One microswitch's normally-open contact is used to close the fire alarm circuit. If the alarm circuit is a 4 wire system, loop in and out to the microswitch, do not tee-tap.

The contacts on the relay K are described in its NON-energized state.
Use the normally closed contact on the second microswitch to energize relay K.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to force the exhaust contactor X to close.
Use a normally closed K relay contact to trip breakers. (The only part of the control system that is not fail-safe. A fail-safe approach requires a contactor feeding all the loads under the hood. Shunt trips are inherently NOT failsafe)
Use a normally opened K relay contact in series with the control for ventilation contact V to to open it.
Use a normally opened K relay contact to hold the gas valve open.

I also provide a normally closed K relay contact, with a strapping option, that defeats the overload contact that would trip the X contactor on overload during alarm conditions. This is known as ?run to destruction? and can be turned on or off with a wire across two connection block contacts.

The normal operating controls for the exhaust fan can be a simple switch in parallel with the relay K normally closed contact. If the exhaust fan uses a ?start/stop? seal-in circuit, the relay K contact should be in parallel with combination of the start and stop buttons.

The normal operating controls for the vent fan should be in series with the relay K normally-open contact.

Now we're cookin. Literally.

 

[jap]

I've heard of others using Normally Closed contactors that activate when the Ansul is tripped because they dont trust the coils being energized 24/7.

My heart tells me thats clever thinking but my mind won't let me do it that way.

I've always done it similar to what you described.

 

[fmtjfw]

I've heard of others using Normally Closed contactors that activate when the Ansul is tripped because they dont trust the coils being energized 24/7.

My heart tells me thats clever thinking but my mind won't let me do it that way.

I've always done it similar to what you described.

I've always felt fail-safe is what you need to do. If you can't trust your relay to run 24/365, then how can you trust them to operate when needed? I always used A-B relays in fire alarms. I applied the same principals to de-energizing electric door locks ....

 

[jap]

I've always felt fail-safe is what you need to do. If you can't trust your relay to run 24/365, then how can you trust them to operate when needed? I always used A-B relays in fire alarms. I applied the same principals to de-energizing electric door locks ....

I'm right there with you.