Any issues with side-by-side 200A panels?

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4x4dually said:
You say that assuming I'm going to pay $40+ for AFCI breakers. LMAO I'll have GCFI's within 6ft of water but I'm not buying into the AFCI BS.
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AFCIs are complete crap and don't work in my opinion. Gfcis work great. If your getting inspection you need AFCIs. Plus if it's new construction and you ever have a fire in anyway related to electrical or a crap appliance, Insurance will try every way possible to blame it on no AFCIs and deny a claim.

I was also just giving an option on it being much better to have a sub panel closer to where the power is being utilized for ease of wire installation and proper GFCI/AFCI operation on a large house with large runs.

A lot of times you also save a fortune on romex running a single SER feeder to a sub panel vs adding 100' extra to each circuit run on the farther circuits. Plus your time in running them. Depends on size of house
 
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I contemplated moving one panel into the other end of the house at first but no bigger than this house is, it's not worth the effort. Only 34' from the panel locations to the center of the house as the crow flies and 74' to the extreme far end which is closets and bedrooms with very little circuits. There will only be a few long home runs. I'll have 10X the amount of NM caught up in 3-way and 4-way light control circuits. It seems I have an addiction for wanting to turn on/off lights from every single doorway in the house. LOL
 
Sweet! Thank you, Sir. I look forward to wiring mine. Panels should deliver today...however, slab is scheduled to pour next Thursday so I'll have to wait for some studs and a roof!
 
ActionDave said:
You'll never be mistaken for a general contractor with that mindset.
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LOL. We hired a builder and he's really good...at least thus far. I'm just too picky to have someone else wire my own house so I'm going to cover the electrical. I enjoy it and sometimes wish I was doing it again instead of riding this desk....at least I'd be about 40 lbs lighter. LOL
 
On the same subject, I have a question about bonding. My plan is to remove the bonding jumper in each of the ATS's outside and run a ground from the ATS enclosures into the panels behind them and install the bonding screw in both panels. The reason I want to bond them inside the interior panels is because the UFER comes up under them in the wall. I'm assuming I install bonding screw in both panels and connect them both separately to the UFER with #4 since they are both separately feed from the pad mount transformer outside the garage. Any issues with that plan?
 
4x4dually said:
Any issues with that plan?
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Didn't follow your schematic description exactly, but the upstream-most (utility-side) OCPD enclosure(s) are where the Main Bonding Jumper(s) must be. So if the ATS(s) are service rated and contain those service OCPD(s), the MBJ(s) must be located there. And the GEC(s) must be terminated there or upstream (e.g. meter enclosure if your POCO allows that).

Cheers, Wayne
 
4x4dually said:
On the same subject, I have a question about bonding. My plan is to remove the bonding jumper in each of the ATS's outside and run a ground from the ATS enclosures into the panels behind them and install the bonding screw in both panels. The reason I want to bond them inside the interior panels is because the UFER comes up under them in the wall. I'm assuming I install bonding screw in both panels and connect them both separately to the UFER with #4 since they are both separately feed from the pad mount transformer outside the garage. Any issues with that plan?
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If your POCO allows the GEC in the meterbase that's the best place for it. You don't have to worry about running jumpers to each panel, or ATS.
 
Little Bill said:
If your POCO allows the GEC in the meterbase that's the best place for it. You don't have to worry about running jumpers to each panel, or ATS.
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There isn't a meter base. They will bill me by putting CT's on the feeds in the transformer enclosure. They will put CT's on the two house feeds and CT's on the shop feeds so they can bill me separately. That way I can file the shop bill on my taxes for the farm and keep the house separate.

So, The first OCPD is in the ATS'. If I leave the bonding jumpers in them and connect both to the UFER, then I must install a additional ground bar in both breaker panels, correct? The plug on neutral bars are connected and can't be separated right? That's seems to become a huge PITA to keep bare conductors separate until they get to the ATS enclosures.
 
4x4dually said:
So, The first OCPD is in the ATS'. If I leave the bonding jumpers in them and connect both to the UFER, then I must install a additional ground bar in both breaker panels, correct?
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Yes, with the first OCPD in the ATSs, you must have the bonding jumpers in the ATSs, you must remove the bonding jumpers in the panels, and you must separate grounds and neutrals in the panels.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Whale phark. I guess I need to find a ground bar kit for both panels then. I was hoping to move the bond just through the brick to the panel since they will literally be 6" or less apart through the wall. Is there any distance rule as exeption to that?
 
4x4dually said:
Whale phark. I guess I need to find a ground bar kit for both panels then. I was hoping to move the bond just through the brick to the panel since they will literally be 6" or less apart through the wall. Is there any distance rule as exeption to that?
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Depends on the panel whether you can remove the bond. Some will allow it and also have instructions as to how.
 
Little Bill said:
Depends on the panel whether you can remove the bond. Some will allow it and also have instructions as to how.
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The question was about the NEC, not product details. With an outdoor service rated ATS with OCPD, connected to a 6" nipple to a distribution panel on the indoor side of the wall, is there any allowance to put the MBJ in the indoor panel, rather than having it in the ATS?

Pretty sure the answer is no, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The question was about the NEC, not product details. With an outdoor service rated ATS with OCPD, connected to a 6" nipple to a distribution panel on the indoor side of the wall, is there any allowance to put the MBJ in the indoor panel, rather than having it in the ATS?

Pretty sure the answer is no, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

Cheers, Wayne
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I may have not quoted all the OP's post, but he did mention having to add ground bars. My reply was to say he wouldn't have to add a ground bar if the two bars could be separated legally per the mfg. But thinking about it, I'm not sure you could separate them with the plug-on neutral bars. That's unless you don't need to use the plug-on feature on that particular bar.

As to putting the MBJ inside, I don't think it would be allowed as the bond should be in the 1st means of disconnect w/ocpd.
 
For services:

MBJ needs to be at the service disconnect enclosure(s). Everything on supply side is bonded to the grounded conductor. Everything on load side is bonded to EGC.

Grounding electrode conductor must be run to service disconnect or any point on supply side of service disconnect up to the service point, not acceptable to run it to anything on load side of service disconnect.
 
Yes, that was the issue. I bought plug-on neutral panels and can't separate. I'll just have to add ground bars and leave the MBJ outside in the OCPD panels. Thanks for the feedback, all. I just didn't know if there was a loop-hole to allow me to move teh MBJ less than a foot inside to make life easier and make the panel make-up look cleaner.

In other news.....I called around to all our local distributors and priced the panels and ATS'. As much as it pains me to support Amazon more than I already do, It saved me a grand to order all of it from them. Had to return one 200A panel. Bent to schidt. New one on the way.

Finally got the slab poured so I'm very anxious to get framing done and start doing what I love...pulling wires and dressing up panels.

slab.jpg
 
4x4dually said:
Finally got the slab poured so I'm very anxious to get framing done and start doing what I love...pulling wires and dressing up panels.
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Looks nice, no basement? Is that common in your area? And why all of the rebar sticking out? Safe room?
 
infinity said:
Looks nice, no basement? Is that common in your area? And why all of the rebar sticking out? Safe room?
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Correct, Safe Room. 8" walls and ceiling. Not that I'm old, but at almost 49, I figure we will retire and finish out lives in this house. I didn't want any stairs up or down. The safe room will double as a gun vault and office. I won't use safes, I'll just hang them all on the wall and lock the vault style door then close a wooden interior door behind that with key-only dead-bolts. Even if we are in wheel chairs by then, we can get inside and close the door. And for now, if we leave for the weekend to go camping, I can lock it up and not worry about anyone breaking into it. Fiber optic comes up in that chase pipe wrapped around the rebar. PC will be on UPS inside the room so even if power is cut, I'll still have cameras powered and recording. I typically over-engineer everything I do. Can you tell? LOL The concrete room also give us a great spot to mount the geothermal unit in the attic space. The attic door will be placed so that when you walk up it, you will step right onto the concrete and be able to service the unit easily.
 
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