Arc fault breaker

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don_resqcapt19 said:
The currently available GFCIs have a grounded neutral detection circuit and will trip on a neutral to EGC fault even without current on the circuit. The neutral ground fault detection is required by UL 943.
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Since main bonding jumpers short Neutral to EGC, what keeps GFCI's from tripping when an incandescent lamp is plugged in?
 
ramsy said:
Neutral-to-EGC resistance similar to galvanic skin response has tripped AFCI devices for years, but not Ground Fault devices.

Buck Perish reported this in 2009, and electricians who understand this can fix AFCI issues, while others wont.
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I think this is a very misunderstood practical application for you. I think you should try on a bench and document each part. You should also see how much resistance it takes to trip it without a load it'd be nice to know for multiple brands of afci.
 
This article is based on the NEC 1999, and newer codes might be different. In newer codes additional locations have been added. Family room, dining room, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, and hallways.
 

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letgomywago said:
I think this is a very misunderstood practical application for you. I think you should try on a bench and document each part. You should also see how much resistance it takes to trip it without a load it'd be nice to know for multiple brands of afci.
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This is not a technical debate. It does not matter if periodically updated laboratory tests, with several device models, and detailed specifications could disclose an unpublished AFCI function that helps pass UL 1699, perhaps more reliably than algorithm matching.

This debate threatens to tell customers AFCI's work with existing wiring, and that NEC 110.12(B) compliance makes old wiring last forever.

This debate threatens business as usual for contractors that exploit ignorance to up-sell remodel wiring. No published bench testing will change such industry practice, which refuses to make existing wiring work with AFCI's. That fools errand will remain a rare and a less rewarded specialty.

Industrial, commercial electricians, and many residential panel flippers have never used AFCI's in existing buildings, and may never need to, if they can continue to replacement rather than maintain existing wiring.
 
ramsy said:
Trips every time without some body resistance between bare ground & neutral terminal.
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Body resistance will stop any trip on a AFCI, GFCI, GFPE whether it's a neutral to ground fault or a hot to neutral fault unless you put enough load through someone.
ramsy said:
Neutral-to-EGC resistance similar to galvanic skin response has tripped AFCI devices for years, but not Ground Fault devices.

Buck Perish reported this in 2009, and electricians who understand this can fix AFCI issues, while others wont.
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There is no skin response mumbo jumbo involved. AFCIs that have ground fault sensing technology in them will trip on a neutral to ground fault and AFCIs that have no ground fault sensing in them will not.

It's ironic that AFCIs are not required to have ground fault sensing in them since that is their only legitimate safety value.
 
ActionDave said:
Body resistance will stop any trip on a AFCI, GFCI, GFPE whether it's a neutral to ground fault or a hot to neutral fault unless you put enough load through someone.
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Most people should be able to trip any AFCI, just like forum member Buck Parish did in 2009.
ActionDave said:
There is no skin response mumbo jumbo involved. AFCIs that have ground fault sensing technology in them will trip on a neutral to ground fault and AFCIs that have no ground fault sensing in them will not.
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The referenced clinical study calls "skin response" a population range of skin-contact resistance, which matched my Milwaukee meter.
ActionDave said:
It's ironic that AFCIs are not required to have ground fault sensing in them since that is their only legitimate safety value.
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Load-side GFCI issues are one of several causes for electrical smoke & power failure that service electricians should recognize & repair, without unnecessary construction or rewire jobs.

Nothing taught me better how to look beyond GFCI issues, defuse outlet bombs, inspect for damage, reject hazardous equipment, communicate with tech support, or defend my findings, than getting existing wiring to work with AFCI's.
 
ramsy said:
Most people should be able to trip any AFCI, just like forum member Buck Parish did in 2009.
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That's because all AFCIs had ground fault sensing in them at the time. Now some GE AFCIs and some Eaton breakers do not. GE even advertises their single pole breakers as compatible with MWBC wiring.
ramsy said:
The referenced clinical study calls "skin response" a population range of skin-contact resistance, which matched my Milwaukee meter.
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Changes nothing about breaker operation.
ramsy said:
Load-side GFCI issues are one of several causes for electrical smoke & power failure that service electricians should recognize & repair, without unnecessary construction or rewire jobs.
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Agree.
ramsy said:
Nothing taught me better how to look beyond GFCI issues, defuse outlet bombs, inspect for damage, reject hazardous equipment, communicate with tech support, or defend my findings, than getting existing wiring to work with AFCI's.
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That's because there was a lot of improperly shared neutrals, poorly wired circuits, and neutral to ground faults that never showed up as a problem until they were forced to work on a breaker that had ground fault sensing technology in it. AFCI had nothing to do with it, the same problems and solutions would have come about with GFPE breakers.
 
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