Arc fault breaker

[macmikeman]

I'm gonna find this out next week.

 

[ramsy]

I'm really happy I visited this thread today, just like that you can learn something new .

I learn new things too, am not afraid to admit it, or thank people for sharing.

 

[ramsy]

There is not much data out there, but the data that was used to say AFCIs are needed, showed that 85% of the dwelling unit fires that were said to be of electrical origin occurred in dwelling units over 20 years old.

There is no way to control any of the factors..

If historical fire data is raised at the Siemens AFCI trial, it may not be allowed, since many courts have prohibited dubious statistical arguments that confound the jury. My guess is Siemens will rely on other evidence, such as UL 1699 test results, or settle before going to trial.

 

[letgomywago]

If historical fire data is raised at the Siemens AFCI trial, it may not be allowed, since many courts have prohibited dubious statistical arguments that confound the jury. My guess is Siemens will rely on other evidence, such as UL 1699 test results, or settle before going to trial.

I'll be happy if this triggers other afci reduction in requirements but I'm not asking for gfpe to be added back in I'd just rather we get straight gfpe breakers.

 

[ramsy]

Few dwelling unit fires are investigated by a trained fire investigator. Most are just reports filled out by the fire company officer, and there is pressure not to show the cause as "unknown".

Do you believe this is the case for arson investigations also?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Do you believe this is the case for arson investigations also?

No, where there is a loss of life or arson, a full fire investigation team will investigate the fire. In Illinois that will often be the State Fire Marshal's office. In the case of suspected arson, there will often be a second team hired by the insurance company

If historical fire data is raised at the Siemens AFCI trial, it may not be allowed, since many courts have prohibited dubious statistical arguments that confound the jury. My guess is Siemens will rely on other evidence, such as UL 1699 test results, or settle before going to trial.

Not sure how 1699 has anything to do with real world fires...that simply describes the conditions where an AFCI must trip, and often included things like creating a carbon path using thousands of volts...something that does not happen in a typical dwelling unit.

 

[ramsy]

No, where there is a loss of life or arson, a full fire investigation team will investigate the fire. In Illinois that will often be the State Fire Marshal's office. In the case of suspected arson, there will often be a second team hired by the insurance company

Thank you for clarifying this, very informative.

Not sure how 1699 has anything to do with real world fires...that simply describes the conditions where an AFCI must trip, and often included things like creating a carbon path using thousands of volts...something that does not happen in a typical dwelling unit.

I'm not making Siemens argument for them, unless they want to hire me as an expert witness.

 

[Call Me Twitchy]

I'm really happy I visited this thread today, just like that you can learn something new .

I'm currently studying the codebook. my head is spinning from all the AFCI discourse I am reading.

 

[letgomywago]

I'm currently studying the codebook. my head is spinning from all the AFCI discourse I am reading.

Just stick with the code and local amendments as is till you have a good grasp of its implication in the trade. The last 10 years with afcis have been crazy. GFCI rules have expanded and those tend to stick so remember those and their implementation also the little issues they have in the 2020 and 2023 tend to either be amended out or there are TIAs holding them back till UL can catch up.

 

[synchro]

Cows caused the bad transformer connections at my house! About three poles down, there is one in the middle of a pasture. The cows use it as a scratching post. The transformer rocks back and forth rather violently. I’ve been trying to catch it on video and post it when I think of it!

I wonder if oil filled transformers might then be used for a hog oiler.

 

[Phillip Land]

Next time changing a light, with switch off, touch Neutral & Grounding with different fingers. It will trip any connected AFCI protective device.

It does not matter if 30mA GFPE is included with C/AFCI or not. Human-body resistance varies, but it trips all brands of AFCI breaker and outlet types. This differs from bolting N-G together, which does trip Class-2 GFCI's, not sure about GFPE.

Since impedance implies current flow, allow me to reword my earlier statement:

Since AFCI's trip when touching N-G to different fingers, this resistance trigger is an empirical trip function of all types of C/AFCI.

I do this of often on newer CAFCIs and they never trip whether I touch them together directly or through my fingers. They only trip on earlier versions that had 30 ma of gfpe built into them

 

[ramsy]

I do this of often on newer CAFCIs and they never trip whether I touch them together directly or through my fingers. They only trip on earlier versions that had 30 ma of gfpe built into them

Which 2 wires are you talking about?

 

[Phillip Land]

Which 2 wires are you talking about?

Neutral and equipment ground

 

[ramsy]

Neutral and equipment ground

Correct wires.

I do this of often on newer CAFCIs and they never trip whether I touch them together directly or through my fingers.

Always works for me.

My Milwaukee meter (signal voltage similar to study below) reads my galvanic skin response ~3MΩ between fingers or hands, 30kΩ initially between arm pits.

A Stress Sensor Based on Galvanic Skin Response (GSR) Controlled by ZigBee - PMC

Sometimes, one needs to control different emotional situations which can lead the person suffering them to dangerous situations, in both the medium and short term. There are studies which indicate that stress increases the risk of cardiac problems. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ramsy]

They only trip on earlier versions that had 30 ma of gfpe built into them

Never seen GFCI or GFPE device trip with resistance Neutral to EGC. Neutral to Hot is a different story.

 

[ActionDave]

GFCI and GFPE always trip on a neutral to ground fault unless they are not functioning correctly.

 

[ramsy]

GFCI and GFPE always trip on a neutral to ground fault unless they are not functioning correctly.

Ground fault devices always trip on hot to ground fault, not Neutral to EGC with resistance.

 

[letgomywago]

Ground fault devices always trip on hot to ground fault, not Neutral to EGC with resistance.

How much resistance is too much. With enough resistance nothing will ever trip anything

 

[ramsy]

How much resistance is too much. With enough resistance nothing will ever trip anything

1-Ohm was enough, using Milwaukee meter.

Since resistance breaks down with voltage, and little voltage is ever metered across N-G prongs of live GFCI, the Milwaukee multi-meter low-voltage signal is closest approximation available to me.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ground fault devices always trip on hot to ground fault, not Neutral to EGC with resistance.

The currently available GFCIs have a grounded neutral detection circuit and will trip on a neutral to EGC fault even without current on the circuit. The neutral ground fault detection is required by UL 943.